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      05-08-2019, 11:14 AM   #23
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Only after he got rich, though.
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      05-08-2019, 11:35 AM   #24
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Government negotiating directly with the drug companies, like the "liberals" in most developed countries.
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      05-08-2019, 11:45 AM   #25
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Government reducing military spending so we then only spend what countries 2-8 combined spend.
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      05-08-2019, 11:50 AM   #26
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Then to the broader question, if you make far more money than average, have a good job, are in decent health, and your number one goal is to have more money in your pocket then I completely agree that you are better off not voting for any social program or anything that doesn't provide a direct benefit to you.
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      05-08-2019, 12:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
It's because this sub-forum has become tiresome and not generally a place where anyone on the left feels welcome.

and that's putting it nicely. This "sub-forum" is nothing short of Breitbart. It hasn't reached the levels of Storm Front...but IMO it's only a matter of time.
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      05-08-2019, 12:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
It's because this sub-forum has become tiresome and not generally a place where anyone on the left feels welcome.

and that's putting it nicely. This "sub-forum" is nothing short of Breitbart. It hasn't reached the levels of Storm Front...but IMO it's only a matter of time.
So true. The crazy republicans here are mostly trolls and know how to complain to mods and get any thread they don't like closed and posts deleted. Smart ppl don't need to complain to shutdown threads or delete posts and can speak for them self but these guys can't handle it so they cry to mods. They talk about freedom but are always the first to try to shut down anyone they don't like. So obviously So many smart ppl left here, look at threads from 1-2 years ago and it was a lot of good posts so much smart ppl talking and I learned so much. Back then I would even get my news from this forum.

Now it's just crazy republicans repeating the same 5 things over and over again and a lot of mis information and republican propaganda here. I think more ppl keep leaving every day and so this place is dying fast. Everything these guys touch dies
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      05-08-2019, 12:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obe100 View Post
and that's putting it nicely. This "sub-forum" is nothing short of Breitbart. It hasn't reached the levels of Storm Front...but IMO it's only a matter of time.
I would add that if you are in the middle politically and everything isn't "black or white", "right or left" and you hope that someone would actually think about individual issues regardless of what their party has told them is the correct answer then you should probably leave.

Same reason I won't try to have an intellectual conversation about politics with the guy wearing the MAGA hat - virtually zero chance he won't have the exact same opinion as Trump and I have a hard time believing that anyone that can really think for themselves and agree 100% with anyone.
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      05-08-2019, 12:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obe100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
It's because this sub-forum has become tiresome and not generally a place where anyone on the left feels welcome.

and that's putting it nicely. This "sub-forum" is nothing short of Breitbart. It hasn't reached the levels of Storm Front...but IMO it's only a matter of time.
Bratbart........ i've also seen two different posters post from RT recently.

Then there's always the gateway pundit, zero hedge, Townhall, Washington Examiner crowd.
And of course John Solomon with the hill, and Mark F, Gonzo loves to post those guys.
If it's not pandering to them, it's not worth reading. Or watching.
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      05-08-2019, 12:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
So true. The crazy republicans here are mostly trolls and know how to complain to mods and get any thread they don't like closed and posts deleted. Smart ppl don't need to complain to shutdown threads or delete posts and can speak for them self but these guys can't handle it so they cry to mods. They talk about freedom but are always the first to try to shut down anyone they don't like. So obviously So many smart ppl left here, look at threads from 1-2 years ago and it was a lot of good posts so much smart ppl talking and I learned so much. Back then I would even get my news from this forum.

Now it's just crazy republicans repeating the same 5 things over and over again and a lot of mis information and republican propaganda here. I think more ppl keep leaving every day and so this place is dying fast. Everything these guys touch dies
Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I would add that if you are in the middle politically and everything isn't "black or white", "right or left" and you hope that someone would actually think about individual issues regardless of what their party has told them is the correct answer then you should probably leave.

Same reason I won't try to have an intellectual conversation about politics with the guy wearing the MAGA hat - virtually zero chance he won't have the exact same opinion as Trump and I have a hard time believing that anyone that can really think for themselves and agree 100% with anyone.
Guys, let's not turn this into an us vs. them discussion. Run Silent has proven time and again that he's interested, willing, and able to have a logical discussion with people across the political spectrum. He and I often have to agree to disagree but it's always respectful and we move on to the next thread, genuinely enjoying the other's input. He's asked an honest question and deserves an honest response.
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      05-08-2019, 01:25 PM   #32
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"Name one left wing Democrat objective that, if implemented, would allow you to earn and keep more money and/or that would make you freer."

From a dedicated liberal... The question itself says so much about the original poster that any real answer would not be accepted or possibly not understood. Why is the goal of making and keeping more money so important? It it the governments job to do this? There are many things in life more important than money for many people. Regarding freedom. It means different things to different people. I remember during the cold war a Russian commenting that freedom in America meant the right to carry a gun, while in the CCCP freedom was the right to always have a job. So your question, while seeming profound to you, is really a reflection of your world view. Its the way you think things should be.
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      05-08-2019, 01:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Government negotiating directly with the drug companies, like the "liberals" in most developed countries.
Lol! The government already negotiates directly with drug companies.
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      05-08-2019, 01:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Swanson View Post
"Name one left wing Democrat objective that, if implemented, would allow you to earn and keep more money and/or that would make you freer."

From a dedicated liberal... The question itself says so much about the original poster that any real answer would not be accepted or possibly not understood. Why is the goal of making and keeping more money so important? It it the governments job to do this? There are many things in life more important than money for many people. Regarding freedom. It means different things to different people. I remember during the cold war a Russian commenting that freedom in America meant the right to carry a gun, while in the CCCP freedom was the right to always have a job. So your question, while seeming profound to you, is really a reflection of your world view. Its the way you think things should be.
I find this interesting and would like to respond. We have a constitution here that spells out quite clearly what freedom means. There are nearly as many constitutions or constitutional documents as there are countries in the world. In this country it means Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

The questions: Why is the goal of making and keeping more money so important? It it the governments job to do this?

Tell me that there is a less than perfect understanding of what our founding fathers, fiercely independent men, meant for our country.

I'm asking you this in all sincerity and with complete respect: Are you a native American Citizen (not a Native American)?

Why would you think it is the government's job to make money? (Either for itself or for you.)

I respectfully await your answer.

Cheers-mk
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      05-08-2019, 02:39 PM   #35
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Sixer,

I found some of your questions confusing.

"Tell me that there is a less than perfect understanding of what our founding fathers, fiercely independent men, meant for our country. " Read some of the writings of the founding fathers and the British philosophers such as Locke and Hume that they based their thinking on. There was a great deal of disagreement on what the US should be and what our founding principles were. So, yes, there is less than a perfect understanding of what they meant for our country.


I'm asking you this in all sincerity and with complete respect: Are you a native American Citizen (not a Native American)? I was born in California (just a little after the gold rush)

Why would you think it is the government's job to make money? (Either for itself or for you.)
I find this confusing. I was referring to the original poster who asked when the Dems ever passed legislation helping people make and keep money. I suggested that the question reflected on his own beliefs and that money was not really the most important thing in life.

Thank you for your politeness. I don't usually post on forums like this due to the occasional nastiness. I hope I answered your questions.
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      05-08-2019, 02:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Swanson View Post
"Name one left wing Democrat objective that, if implemented, would allow you to earn and keep more money and/or that would make you freer."

From a dedicated liberal... The question itself says so much about the original poster that any real answer would not be accepted or possibly not understood. Why is the goal of making and keeping more money so important? It it the governments job to do this? There are many things in life more important than money for many people. Regarding freedom. It means different things to different people. I remember during the cold war a Russian commenting that freedom in America meant the right to carry a gun, while in the CCCP freedom was the right to always have a job. So your question, while seeming profound to you, is really a reflection of your world view. Its the way you think things should be.
And a job that paid well but there was nothing to buy. They ate crap food, lived in pretty poor housing , the heat went off in April regardless of the temperature and medical care was terrible - unless you were a Party member or athlete. Oh, vodka was cheap.
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      05-08-2019, 02:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Paul Swanson View Post
Thank you for your politeness. I don't usually post on forums like this due to the occasional nastiness. I hope I answered your questions.
OK, so to be fair, you kinda came out swinging right out of the gate:
Quote:
The question itself says so much about the original poster that any real answer would not be accepted or possibly not understood.
There are certainly people on this forum who make it their mission to berate and "win" at all costs. But your assessment of the OP is offbase.
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      05-08-2019, 04:29 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Lol! The government already negotiates directly with drug companies.
Quote:
Can the government negotiate better Medicare drug prices?
Federal law currently prohibits the Secretary of Health and Human Services from negotiating prescription drug prices. Only Congress has the power to change this law.
https://www.crfb.org/press-releases/...on-drug-prices
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      05-08-2019, 04:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Name one left wing Democrat objective that, if implemented, would allow you to earn and keep more money and/or that would make you freer.

I honestly cannot think of one.
Do you have kids?

What happens if your wife/GF bears a child that is severely handicapped?

How good is your insurance then? Not only for the medical bills, but all the adaptations in your home, additional care when you want to go on vacation, special schooling etc etc.
At that point you'll appreciate all the help you can get from the government.
Thats also a form of freedom, given help so you can live a normal life.

In the end its very simple. If you don't need any help, if you're healty, have a good job and no different social preferences than the bulk of the people, you will never benefit from a more left wing system.
But if there comes a time in your life that the above doesn't apply for 100%, then you will notice that.
And of course how society handles all those that don't 100% fit that profile above. They also live in your society. If you're not bothered by seeing a kid that was born from very poor parents that gets sick or has another medical issue and the parents decide not to take him to the doctor because they can't pay for it/pay for insurance. Vote republican. Then you get to keep more of your hard earned money and a 3rd or 4th car becomes an option.
But having 1 car less could solve so much.

As someone that doesnt live in the US to me it always seems that these kinds of discussions on this forum (and other forums I visit where the majority of the members is american), are very black white.
This discussion too: you dont want to pay any more.
The rest of the western world (at least thats how I experience it), usually discusses how much more one would be willing to pay to solve certain problems in a society.
For instance my first example: parents that have a severely disabled kid.
I'm pretty sure that everyone rather see that such parents would rather have lots of special support from governent etc.
The real matter is, how much is that worth to you. To solve more of these kind of problems, how much would you like to spend on that.
The way you're formulating your question now, is that you wouldnt want to even spend 1 dollar per year, even if it would solve every social problem there is.
And thats pretty cold, especially coming from a person that has 3 cars, one of which is a ferrari.
So I think that you should give more thought about what you find important and what not, and how much should be spent on that. (and maybe that less should be spent on other issues)
Maybe the source of this way of thinking (or better said: lack of), is that the US mainly only 2 political parties one can vote on (I know there are more, but generally there is 1 political party that wins absolute majority in an election and thus gets to rule on that aspect.
A lot of other western countries have a political landscape that is way more diverse. Elections have 10-20 parties, from which at least 5 are considered a 'major party' each with their own ideas on how to tackle problems in society.
For instance 2 parties could be generally equally left or right, but can have a totally different opinion on what social problem should get primary attention.
And in such a political landscape those political parties have to work together to get a majority and thus form a government togheter, where they have to come into agreement with eachother on how to spend the annual budget (and wheter to raise the budget or not etc).

So the whole abosute yes/no, absolute for/against, the 'you're either with us or against us' mentality and basis to form an opinion on seems to me a bit extreme.
The statement 'I dont want to pay anything more than I'm already paying' is strange in my eyes (especially if you have 3 cars, one of which is a ferrari). It all depends on what you get in return.
I mean, look at the average american roadsurface quality. Now look at the average german autobahn.
Yes that costs money. If you want that too, that means you have to get a government that spends more into society.
I know the autobahn comparison is a no brainer on a car forum, but the point is, there are also lots of people who couldn't care less about road surface quality and rather see that that money spent on raising quality in the public education. The point is both are goals that are financed with tax money.
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      05-08-2019, 04:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Swanson View Post
. Why is the goal of making and keeping more money so important? It it the governments job to do this? .
Who the hell DOESN'T want to keep more of THEIR money?

No, the government should be very very far away from our income, but that will never happen
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      05-08-2019, 05:07 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Do you have kids?

What happens if your wife/GF bears a child that is severely handicapped?.....
I have to ask.
Are you German? Or a German citizen?

I ask not because of the autobahn example, but even while reading the early part of your response, I pictured you as German by your views.

I lived 10 years in Germany (2002-2012), and my wife is German, my son is (obviously) half German. In those 10 years I went from hating how things worked, to honestly seeing the benefit of the social systems (I still hate the finanzamt).

While there are definitely HUGE positives and negatives in the differences between our societies, I came back to the U.S. with a mix of "common sense" ideals that shaped my political opinion. The problem I see, is that our government programs are so sown into our culture and state of being that there is no way to effectively implement say universal healthcare or a high tax rate like Germany, regardless of the benefit to society.

One example is prostitution.
The right wants freedom at all costs (2A is strangely the loudest topic), but also still wants to govern or restrict things that don't align with conservative views, like prostitution, abortion, drugs, etc.
Whereas in Europe, prostitution is viewed legal-wise the same as working at McDonalds.

It's a sad conclusion to come to, as I love the states for certain reasons, and of course love Germany for others, but when I'm honest with myself, I feel that my family would have a better life in Germany health wise, education wise, socially, and professionally.

When you have experienced both ways of life as a working adult with a family, houses, etc, it really puts things in perspective and eliminates the "us vs them" mentality. I see positives and negatives in both parties policies.

/ramble
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      05-08-2019, 05:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
I have to ask.
Are you German? Or a German citizen?

I ask not because of the autobahn example, but even while reading the early part of your response, I pictured you as German by your views.
No I'm not German but close.
But I do visit the Autobahn from time to time for obvious reasons
(but I don't excersize my given freedoms here like the use of prostitution (or work in prostitution for that matter), gay marriage or even smoke weed, so I don't make use of all those 'leftist' freedoms although I wouldnt want to see it otherwise)

My personal view is that a lot of things are very well organized in europe (varies obviously from country to country) but a lot of things also arent (or sometimes maybe over-organized). So there are also things that are better in the US
The point is to think about all those concepts and what its worth to you.
And freedom can also extend to the strangest aspects (to get back on topic and the TS main question..).
I mean (as an example) you live in a street, bought a very nice house, decent neighbourhood, nice neighbours.
But.... there is this one guy in your street, living in the house across you, and he decides to paint his house pink, fluorescent pink. Should he be allowed to?
I mean the only thing you now see when you look out your window is this massive pink block, its a thorn in the eye to everyone, and you fear for the value of your house because clearly the all other streets in your neighbourhood are more attractive because they dont have a massive 100x50ft pink block in the middle....
But hey, you want more freedom right? So the freedom to paint your house the colour you want also results into that freedom for your crazy neighbour.
It's 'leftist' to make all kinds of rules that impede in your freedom on such and other matters.
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      05-08-2019, 05:45 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
No I'm not German but close.
But I do visit the Autobahn from time to time for obvious reasons
(but I don't excersize my given freedoms here like the use of prostitution (or work in prostitution for that matter), gay marriage or even smoke weed, so I don't make use of all those 'leftist' freedoms although I wouldnt want to see it otherwise)

My personal view is that a lot of things are very well organized in europe (varies obviously from country to country) but a lot of things also arent (or sometimes maybe over-organized). So there are also things that are better in the US
The point is to think about all those concepts and what its worth to you.
And freedom can also extend to the strangest aspects (to get back on topic and the TS main question..).
I mean (as an example) you live in a street, bought a very nice house, decent neighbourhood, nice neighbours.
But.... there is this one guy in your street, living in the house across you, and he decides to paint his house pink, fluorescent pink. Should he be allowed to?
I mean the only thing you now see when you look out your window is this massive pink block, its a thorn in the eye to everyone, and you fear for the value of your house because clearly the all other streets in your neighbourhood are more attractive because they dont have a massive 100x50ft pink block in the middle....
But hey, you want more freedom right? So the freedom to paint your house the colour you want also results into that freedom for your crazy neighbour.
It's 'leftist' to make all kinds of rules that impede in your freedom on such and other matters.
Your example is an interesting one. In Belgium for example, you have a lot of freedom in how you want your house to look. This leads to "interesting" neighbourhoods where housing doesn't always match. In the Netherlands you can't really do this, neighbourhoods have a higher degree of uniformity because municipalities mandate this.

In general though, I like to really oversimplify the comparison between Europe and the US.

I feel that when it comes to certain things, the US has a far too great "hands off" approach when it probably should be more involved. Europe is the opposite, where governments tend to want to involve themselves with every little thing. It's too much, take a more hands off approach like the US!

It's definitely an oversimplification, but I don't think it's that far from the truth.
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      05-08-2019, 06:05 PM   #44
GuidoK
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^the ideal society is indeed somewhere inbetween.

The main problem is that not everyone has the same opinion on what rules should be given more freedom and what rules should be made more strickt because everyone has different interests.

I mean when I wanted to cut down a few trees in my garden 20 years ago I couldnt get a permit because they (the local government) thought that those trees were very determining on how the neighbourhood looked, and I'm sure a lot of people in the neighbourhood agreed with that (most people like trees).
But I (and my direct neighbours) had to put up with the enormous amount of debris falling from those trees annually plus a lot of sunshine that they took away in our gardens. So completely different interests on the same matter.
10 years later I applied for another permit and the local government said.. hmmm yeah.... it's not necessary anymore to apply for a permit, you're free to cut down any tree you like as long as its on your property...
But of course because I already had applied for a permit I had to pay permit fees

The difference between Belgium and the Netherlands is indeed quite big on matters of urban planning.
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