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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 62 31.31%
Trump Trump-umphant. 67 33.84%
Inclusive 14 7.07%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 58 29.29%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 8 4.04%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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      11-19-2019, 03:46 PM   #2751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Is there any more raw application of non-military power than to withhold foreign aid? That was about exerting our control based on our morality on another nation.
I'm going off of your assertion of the term Realpolitik. Obama was going off of an ethical reason not practical/pragmatic reason for withholding aid. Which, you and other Trump supporters should be fine with because in the end Obama ended up giving Nigeria a ton of aid. It has been one of the Republicans biggest excuses for Trump's Ukraine dealings as in "he released the aid so what is the problem" tactic.

Probably the best example of it was Otto Von Bismarck's use of it in creating/uniting the German country, but with the Prussians on top.

So if by that goal Trump was trying to use Realpolitik, but misunderstanding how it would turn out/wouldn't work as the US is too divided to fall under Trump's version of MAGA.

Conversely the Dems know this isn't going to unite the US under their banner either moving ahead with impeachment. Pelosi knows better and Trump forced her hand. You are right, we will see who wins next September.

Here is the basic definition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realpolitik
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      11-19-2019, 03:48 PM   #2752
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Is there any more raw application of non-military power than to withhold foreign aid? That was about exerting our control based on our morality on another nation.
I could see a moral debate in regards to Obama's withholding aid. However this not a question of morality, but about policy. In this case, Trump violated policy. Obama did not.
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      11-19-2019, 03:52 PM   #2753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
you had a point? Sorry, I missed that, along with everyone else.

Oh I have trust me and you are definitely not neutral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
"Nothing burger" isn't a point. It's an opinion. It becomes a point when there are facts involved.
Not helping the less educated/more educated who voted for Trump argument is he.
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      11-19-2019, 04:02 PM   #2754
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So is this it? These are the best the Dims and Schitt have?

lollllllllllllllllllllllll

Oh the pain the loons are putting themselves through, don't know how they can do it after all these years of losing and looking like complete jackass idiots.
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      11-19-2019, 04:06 PM   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
The rules aren't just loose, they are designed and executed to eliminate the voice of the minority party. The end result is exactly as your emboldened text states. Nicely done.
I disagree. And the rules were set up by the GOP in 2015. As you well know......
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      11-19-2019, 04:14 PM   #2756
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
"Nothing burger" isn't a point. It's an opinion. It becomes a point when there are facts involved.
Please scroll up and see what this entire thing was about. This is getting stupid.
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      11-19-2019, 04:19 PM   #2757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Oh I have trust me and you are definitely not neutral.



Not helping the less educated/more educated who voted for Trump argument is he.

Let me replay these back for you, since you're having trouble keeping up.

I've even bolded the exact statements you decided to twist in some way. And again, I dont really care. I was just trying to point out he wasn't wrong. Somehow you decided to take offense to that.

Once again.

EDIT: also, nice jab at the "less educated" bit. real classy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Fyi Nixon never was impeached he step down and was pardon.

Clinton was impeach by the house and acquitted by the senate

Andrew suffer the same fate.

Every other republican president (except ford) since Eisenhower has had the democratic house try to impeach because they aren't happy if it not their guy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Huh, official impeachment proceedings were brought against Reagan and the Bush's? I must've seriously missed something.

What was the reason to impeach Clinton???????????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
He said try to impeach, and yes, that happened:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeac...eral_officials
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
If you go by that than the Republicans also have tried to impeach every Dem Pres since Carter. I don't count having a conversation about impeaching an official impeachment attempt like this.
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Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Yes, Thats correct. Just clarifying since you decided to twist the words that were originally posted.
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      11-19-2019, 04:30 PM   #2758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
This is literally what Trump's Presidency/ re-election campaign is based on. A few old ideas and if anyone says anything against them (even in his own party/supporters) resort to attack mode.
I agree, for the most part. He's a shrewd marketer and has tapped into a vein of disillusionment and resentment. And he knows who the resentment can be channeled against for maximum effect and tactical advantage.
The word you're looking for is demagogue. Trump is the poster child for that and narcissism.
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      11-19-2019, 04:38 PM   #2759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I could see a moral debate in regards to Obama's withholding aid. However this not a question of morality, but about policy. In this case, Trump violated policy. Obama did not.
The President sets policy for the State Department. This is a political hack job. We shall soon see.
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      11-19-2019, 04:51 PM   #2760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
I disagree. And the rules were set up by the GOP in 2015. As you well know......
It's your right to disagree. The objective reality is that the opposition party has been neutered and this is NOT proceeding the same way as the investigations into Mr. Clinton and Mr. Nixon.
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      11-19-2019, 05:18 PM   #2761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Let me replay these back for you, since you're having trouble keeping up.

I've even bolded the exact statements you decided to twist in some way. And again, I dont really care. I was just trying to point out he wasn't wrong. Somehow you decided to take offense to that.

Once again.

EDIT: also, nice jab at the "less educated" bit. real classy.
Called a joke and the guy I was talking to even let it go.

Here, so you can sleep tonight. You are right, better looking and smarter than I am. Feel better?
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      11-19-2019, 05:25 PM   #2762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Let me replay these back for you, since you're having trouble keeping up.

I've even bolded the exact statements you decided to twist in some way. And again, I dont really care. I was just trying to point out he wasn't wrong. Somehow you decided to take offense to that.

Once again.

EDIT: also, nice jab at the "less educated" bit. real classy.
Called a joke and the guy I was talking to even let it go.

Here, so you can sleep tonight. You are right, better looking and smarter than I am. Feel better?
Right. Have a good evening.
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      11-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #2763
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Did you see anything? - No
Did you hear anything? - No
Where you there? - No
Did you speak to anyone on the call? - No

"Thank you for being an American hero" - Adam Schiff
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      11-19-2019, 05:34 PM   #2764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
The President sets policy for the State Department. This is a political hack job. We shall soon see.
Not retroactively and the President is still subject to active policies even if set by previous administrations. That implies impunity and sets a dangerous precedent for our Executive Branch.

You can call it a political hack job, but in the least it's constitutional, unlike Trump's actions. We all know whats going to happen, there is no see. The senate will not impeach, so all his supporters are already hanging on to that fact. The joke is that a House impeachment will not be any big revelation against Trump. The right can't see past their party lines and the left can't let Biden's innocents be contingent on Trump's guilt and vice versa. It's only a hack job because you disagree with the state of affairs. Plain and simple. Those of us in the middle aren't crippled with blind devotion.
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      11-19-2019, 05:37 PM   #2765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
I disagree. And the rules were set up by the GOP in 2015. As you well know......
It's your right to disagree. The objective reality is that the opposition party has been neutered and this is NOT proceeding the same way as the investigations into Mr. Clinton and Mr. Nixon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Let me replay these back for you, since you're having trouble keeping up.

I've even bolded the exact statements you decided to twist in some way. And again, I dont really care. I was just trying to point out he wasn't wrong. Somehow you decided to take offense to that.

Once again.

EDIT: also, nice jab at the "less educated" bit. real classy.
Called a joke and the guy I was talking to even let it go.

Here, so you can sleep tonight. You are right, better looking and smarter than I am. Feel better?
Because there's more evidence, and the crime is far more sinister?

I don't get the willful ignorance by so many. "Nothing to see here" is a defense of the president unbecoming to you.
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      11-19-2019, 05:50 PM   #2766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
It's your right to disagree. The objective reality is that the opposition party has been neutered and this is NOT proceeding the same way as the investigations into Mr. Clinton and Mr. Nixon.
"Neutered" is not objective.
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      11-19-2019, 05:53 PM   #2767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Did you see anything? - No
Did you hear anything? - No
Where you there? - No
Did you speak to anyone on the call? - No

"Thank you for being an American hero" - Adam Schiff
Another "nothing-burger" inaccurate post from white non-Hispanic American Sanctuary City resident who is certainly not racist for making sure we all know he is not Hispanic.
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      11-19-2019, 07:01 PM   #2768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
What's the motive, gentlemen? With the subject of the alleged malfeasance saying that there was no threat and no quid pro quo and the act of using aid as a part of US Foreign policy (This is well documented and also grounded in historical precedent.) Why are we here? Why are we listening to hearsay? Why aren't the rules typically used in these proceedings being followed?

This is political theater and will come to nothing.
Well, Ukraine is still relying on aid from us, so of course Zelensky is going to say what he thinks will make Trump happy. There have been other reports from lower government officials that are at odds with the "official" Ukraine position, I believe.

Further, the fact that Trump might be inept at extorting/bribing the Ukrainian government does not, in itself, nullify that he apparently tried.

Neither is the "Trump is too stupid about these things, he didn't realize it was illegal" a valid defense, and that one is surely coming 'round the mountain before this is all said and done.




In the end, I strongly suspect the GOP will come around to "He did it, it was wrong, but it's not bad enough to impeach him over." as a whole.
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      11-19-2019, 07:05 PM   #2769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Is there any more raw application of non-military power than to withhold foreign aid? That was about exerting our control based on our morality on another nation.
Except in Trump's case there are way too many holes to credibly claim this was all about "fighting corruption" in general.
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      11-19-2019, 07:10 PM   #2770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Neither is the "Trump is too stupid about these things, he didn't realize it was illegal" a valid defense, and that one is surely coming 'round the mountain before this is all said and done.

In the end, I strongly suspect the GOP will come around to "He did it, it was wrong, but it's not bad enough to impeach him over." as a whole.
Wrong is not illegal (captain obvious here). Why would the GOP "admit" anything. It will go to the Senate. I wonder what "high crime/misdemeanor" the Dems settle on?

Biden gave an ultimatum that if the prosecutor investigating his son was not fired - they would not get a billion$- Was that "wrong"? Yes. Was it illegal? No
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      11-19-2019, 07:14 PM   #2771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
It's your right to disagree. The objective reality is that the opposition party has been neutered and this is NOT proceeding the same way as the investigations into Mr. Clinton and Mr. Nixon.
You'd be okay with an Independent Counsel being assigned, a la Ken Starr, or a Special Prosecutor like Archibald Cox?
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      11-19-2019, 07:16 PM   #2772
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Wrong is not illegal (captain obvious here). Why would the GOP "admit" anything. It will go to the Senate. I wonder what "high crime/misdemeanor" the Dems settle on?
Wrong doesn't need to be "illegal".



Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Biden gave an ultimatum that if the prosecutor investigating his son was not fired - they would not get a billion$- Was that "wrong"? Yes. Was it illegal? No
Still clinging to this trope, eh? Hunter Biden was never under investigation and the Ukrainian government has since stated, officially, that they see no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Hunter Biden.
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