Need some job advice (Corporate America)

[Rahul718]

Hi all,

It's not like me to ask for personal advise on a public forum, so this is definitely new territory for me, but I'm at a point where I'm curious what others would do in my spot. I feel like there are a lot of injustices happening but I also want to know you feel I'm being too sensitive or if I'm justified in how I feel.

I'm a Senior Product Manager for a large company and I've been here for 3 years. I own the P&L for my product line and it's been growing every year since I took over (minus 2020 due to Covid). I previously reported into a Senior Director with whom I have a very very good relationship with. We speak to each other like friends and there's definitely no workplace filter between us. I was really happy up until April 2021. Things are definitely a bit more strained now.

In April 2021 there was a big organizational restructure that impacted me the most and it's been downhill from there. Up until the restructure I was confident I was going to get bumped up to a Director but the opposite happened - they promoted someone else in another team to Director back in December 2019 and then brought her over to our team in April 2021 --> so she now reports into my old boss and I now report into her. However, some pretty big things have happened since then and I need everyone to be brutally honest whether I'm being a child or whether I'm justified:

1 - In the height of Covid one of my direct reports was furloughed and did not end up coming back on her own will. My (old) boss told me he would need to repurpose that headcount for another position on his team and his exact words were "I promise you I will fight like hell to get this headcount back for you later on". Back in March 2021 of this year I brought up revisiting opening this role again and he said he would explore it. Then the reorg happened...

Now I am being told told by my new boss "no new headcount for 2021", yet 2 other teams have hired new people and here I am struggling still. It's really not fair since myself and my team are overworked and I know for a fact the two other teams that received new headcount and basically just getting by easily.

2 - The new Director I report into has essentially said "this is your show, I'm just in the background" - immediate red flag when I heard this. But the problem is I have no opportunity for advancement now. I'm not even being biased but I deserved a promotion to Director and even though I didn't get demoted it certainly feels that way since a layer has been added on top of me.

3 - I had my performance review in June and it was given to me by my old boss and I got to air out some things. I told him I was not happy in those exact words and he was silent for a few seconds and responded with "you're too valuable to be unhappy". He said he wants me to move up also and that I need more visibility...

How am I supposed to get more visibility now? There were 2 BIG projects I was working on before the reorg - I'm talking about projects that I started from scratch and ideated the hell out of and are now multi-million dollar products that positively impact my P&L. The new Director who stepped in is micromanaging the hell out of these projects and is presenting them on divisional calls. This got me so angry because it should be ME presenting these things.

And this is where I differ with my direct reports. Whenever they do something great I tell THEM to present it and let upper management know so that THEY get the visibility, but it does not get reciprocated to me.

4 - I don't know how the hell HR let this happen, but my new boss has a husband who works in a separate team but same division as ours. I've gotten into arguments with him before and now I report into his wife. He now basically has a direct foothold into my group and I feel that he knows this. I am often in email chains with just him, me and his wife (my boss) and it just feels so damn awkward. I don't know a single company that would allow this to happen from an HR perspective. It's gotten to the point where when he sends me an email he will copy his wife, sort of as a nudge for me to get his stuff done. Does anyone else see an issue with this?

In short I'm pretty miserable and today we had a divisional update call where my new boss basically reported on all the cool projects I started with no recognition or anything like that. I hopped off the call right now because I was infuriated. It should have been me giving those updates because I poured my heard and soul into those two projects that have proved to be extremely profitable for my company.

My old boss did tell me when this whole transition happened "you need to be brutally honest with me and let me know if the reorg isn't working or if you feel I don't have your back". Ever since I told him I was not happy when he did my review I feel he has distanced himself from me a little bit. I would like to talk with him again very soon but I don't want it to be a vent session and I also don't want him to think I'm looking elsewhere (I am by the way). Yet I do want to let him know how this is affecting me.

I just feel really defeated right now and feel like nothing I do is ever good enough for this company. Meanwhile if you speak with anyone in the company they will all have good things to say about me because I get along with everyone. I've come to terms that this isn't the company for me anymore but want to get these points across away but not in a threatening way.

Any advise? Anyone else been in a similar situation? I'm trying to see things from a neutral perspective rather than just being overly emotional too quickly but I really do feel like no one has my back here and I went from being in a really good place to now being a pawn that just does the work. The only thing that keeps me going is looking forward to the day I give my 2 weeks notice with a laundry list of reasons why I'm leaving.

Thanks in advance for any helping words.

[Capt Crunch]

I would start looking around for leverage, comfort, and validation, if nothing else.

My suggestion is to negotiate concrete commitments. If you can’t get a commitment immediately, have them commit to a timeline of committing to something. Have them commit to anything. Then hold them accountable to it.

Basically you’ll have three possible outcomes:

1) They commit to something and meet it. Yay. Keep ratcheting their commitments up while keeping your commitments.
2) They commit to something and don’t meet it. I would start preparing to leave.
3) They refuse to commit to something. I would start preparing to leave.

I had a similar situation as you. The first time (2) happened and I left. Later (1) happened. I’m currently in the midst of (3). I’m a huge fan of transparency and, while I sometimes didn’t get what I wanted, everyone was on the same page about what was happening.

[upstatedoc]

Cliff notes please…

[2000cs]

You need to understand, in brutally honest terms, why you didn’t get the director job and why you’re more isolated now. If you can’t overcome those issues at your current employer, move on.

To get visibility, look for other opportunities. Are there teams organized for specific goals/purposes you can volunteer on (yes, extra time)? If they have visibility to more senior execs, do it. We had mentoring, safety teams, teams for community service, etc. Also volunteer for any event where upper management will attend, and go to charity events they attend. Make yourself visible to them. If these avenues are closed to you (boss won’t authorize volunteer roles, for example) then move on.

With the exception of the former boss that you’re close with, keep your opinions/attitudes to yourself. Just do a great job and make it visible. Grumble in private.

The director role is often the transition from managing to leading and executive (broad) decision making. Demonstrate those skills, including thoughtful delegation and development of your peers and subordinates. Maybe you’ll get VP.

[MsGoGoMoto]

Originally Posted by 2000cs

You need to understand, in brutally honest terms, why you didn't get the director job and why you're more isolated now. If you can't overcome those issues at your current employer, move on.

To get visibility, look for other opportunities. Are there teams organized for specific goals/purposes you can volunteer on (yes, extra time)? If they have visibility to more senior execs, do it. We had mentoring, safety teams, teams for community service, etc. Also volunteer for any event where upper management will attend, and go to charity events they attend. Make yourself visible to them. If these avenues are closed to you (boss won't authorize volunteer roles, for example) then move on.

With the exception of the former boss that you're close with, keep your opinions/attitudes to yourself. Just do a great job and make it visible. Grumble in private.

The director role is often the transition from managing to leading and executive (broad) decision making. Demonstrate those skills, including thoughtful delegation and development of your peers and subordinates. Maybe you'll get VP.

Give this man a beer.
Well said!

[BMW F22]

This hits home for me so without going into too much detail, I’ll give you three possible routes for your position:
1. See if you can do an internal transfer to another team and move up internally. It is usually very difficult to move up in your own team so the solution is to go to a different team.
2. Take some time off to reassess things. Perhaps consider going part time for now.
3. Find jobs externally.

You don’t want to and shouldn’t be unhappy in life, at work? At your job, with your team or colleagues, etc.

[shimmy23]

You sound like every other person that thinks they deserve it. Welcome to corporate America

May I ask how much experience you have in your field?

[Maestro]

Because of Covid many companies are take this as an opportunity to do things differently whether is make sense or not. Lots of companies are doing the top to bottom reorganization, they are just shaking things up to see what falls out. Then add on all the other social activism going on, companies are trying to put up a good front they are going to right those so call injustices. Today if you fall into a group which no one cares to virtual signaling about you are pretty much screwed, they do not care if you stay or go, they just want you to keep your mouth shut and do your job.

I would agree you do not want to between a wife and husband at work, that is not going to end well. Even having someone in another department always copying your boss on everything is not a good situation by itself. Add in a personal relationship between the two makes all that much worse.

As someone suggested, if you like the company and want to stay, see if you can work in another department or group. If that is not a possibility look elsewhere, there are lots of opportunities out there today and it is not worth being unhappy.

[DocL]

All I know is you that should never have personal items at your job that would require more than two bags to put it all in for you make a quick exit.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by 2000cs

You need to understand, in brutally honest terms, why you didn’t get the director job and why you’re more isolated now. If you can’t overcome those issues at your current employer, move on.

To get visibility, look for other opportunities. Are there teams organized for specific goals/purposes you can volunteer on (yes, extra time)? If they have visibility to more senior execs, do it. We had mentoring, safety teams, teams for community service, etc. Also volunteer for any event where upper management will attend, and go to charity events they attend. Make yourself visible to them. If these avenues are closed to you (boss won’t authorize volunteer roles, for example) then move on.

With the exception of the former boss that you’re close with, keep your opinions/attitudes to yourself. Just do a great job and make it visible. Grumble in private.

This.

Originally Posted by shimmy23

You sound like every other person that thinks they deserve it. Welcome to corporate America

May I ask how much experience you have in your field?

I was going to ask the same thing.

OP, from what I read; it seems that your expectation versus the end result (maybe not the final end, but where you currently are) vary; thus resulting in your disdain. From being someone who sat on the other side of the desk, typically when we pull back in association with employees that we were comfortable with, there is a reason behind it. The reason will never be disclosed to you, regardless of your employer; that is if you stay with corporate type roles.

I get the hurt feelings aspect of not being given the credit due on projects. I deal with this often. I pour everything into my projects to deliver as close to perfection as possible, there are no perfect projects (Each project has it's own problems, this is where we as professionals asses and overcome. Projects are nothing more than learning lessons of what we did things wrong this time, to improve upon with the next project.) yet I still get no credit for what I've done personally. I shouldn't get credit, we are a team. Even if the project is something that I have shed light on and executed, at the end of the day, it needed to be completed; regardless of how I feel about it. I'm not here for accolades on getting my job done, I'm here for a paycheck; completing projects is how I get the paycheck. If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't be here. This mentality is what keeps me grounded in my position.

I'll be honest here, it seems like the entire post is a really lengthy way of saying "It isn't fair." I'd keep this under your hat. Nothing about corporate business is fair. The business isn't tailored around you and your happiness; it's engineered to make the company money. Regardless of your position, unless COO/CEO, the company is built to sustain itself with or without you. Removal of ego is key here. Understand your role, realize, that regardless of where you work, it will be like this most everywhere in a corporate position. Change your mindset and expectations, you'll be a happier person.

The alternative to this, if you're unhappy, do something. Create your own happiness. Business is business. It's not a therapy session about how you feel. How you feel doesn't make the company money, which is why they employee you in the first place. Co-worker's may like you, but your position isn't based upon whether or not you're a likable person. If this company isn't for you, then there is no need to deliver a laundry list of why, when you leave. Again, it's business, your personal feelings have no place here. It's preferable to work someplace we enjoy, or to do something that we enjoy doing, but again; it's business. Do whatever you need to find a happy medium. Balance of work and home life is most important.

[Rahul718]

Originally Posted by Capt Crunch

I would start looking around for leverage, comfort, and validation, if nothing else.

My suggestion is to negotiate concrete commitments. If you can’t get a commitment immediately, have them commit to a timeline of committing to something. Have them commit to anything. Then hold them accountable to it.

Basically you’ll have three possible outcomes:

1) They commit to something and meet it. Yay. Keep ratcheting their commitments up while keeping your commitments.
2) They commit to something and don’t meet it. I would start preparing to leave.
3) They refuse to commit to something. I would start preparing to leave.

I had a similar situation as you. The first time (2) happened and I left. Later (1) happened. I’m currently in the midst of (3). I’m a huge fan of transparency and, while I sometimes didn’t get what I wanted, everyone was on the same page about what was happening.

As an employee when are we ever in a situation to negotiate without it seeming like an ultimatum that could get you fired? As much as I would like to go about things this way I just feel it would do way more harm than good. I'm like you, I like transparency so there are no surprises but it's also a 2 way street and not everyone plays that way. In short I've made up my mind a few months ago that I am leaving. My situation is here is just too far gone.

Originally Posted by 2000cs

You need to understand, in brutally honest terms, why you didn’t get the director job and why you’re more isolated now. If you can’t overcome those issues at your current employer, move on.

To get visibility, look for other opportunities. Are there teams organized for specific goals/purposes you can volunteer on (yes, extra time)? If they have visibility to more senior execs, do it. We had mentoring, safety teams, teams for community service, etc. Also volunteer for any event where upper management will attend, and go to charity events they attend. Make yourself visible to them. If these avenues are closed to you (boss won’t authorize volunteer roles, for example) then move on.

With the exception of the former boss that you’re close with, keep your opinions/attitudes to yourself. Just do a great job and make it visible. Grumble in private.

The director role is often the transition from managing to leading and executive (broad) decision making. Demonstrate those skills, including thoughtful delegation and development of your peers and subordinates. Maybe you’ll get VP.

Good feedback but I'll correct you. It's not that I didn't get the Director role. The person who got moved on top of me was a Director overseeing another team. Then she got moved on top of me and still oversees what she did before. There was never a Director opportunity open in my immediate team.

I agree with you on the visibility aspect and as much as I try to get visibility, it gets overshadowed by the new boss who usually interjects or takes over. I'm not stupid, nor is she. We both know what's happening and I'm fairly confident she knows that prior to her I was most likely going to get bumped up. We're cordial and fake laugh but we don't like each other and that's ok. I'm starting to just look at work like a transaction - I do the job and I get paid. Except the problem is a lot of the stuff I'm not getting recognition for is stuff that wasn't really in the job description that I went over and beyond for, hoping it would get me a bump up.

Originally Posted by BMW F22

This hits home for me so without going into too much detail, I’ll give you three possible routes for your position:
1. See if you can do an internal transfer to another team and move up internally. It is usually very difficult to move up in your own team so the solution is to go to a different team.
2. Take some time off to reassess things. Perhaps consider going part time for now.
3. Find jobs externally.

You don’t want to and shouldn’t be unhappy in life, at work? At your job, with your team or colleagues, etc.

#1 and #2 are not possible unfortunately. #3 is exactly what I'm doing and I've been looking since April. This time I'm going to be picky so that I don't end up in a similar situation. And you're right about being unhappy... I'm married and have 2 little kids who are 3 and 1.5 years old and as much as I try not to let my unhappiness at work trickle into my personal life, it definitely does.

Originally Posted by shimmy23

You sound like every other person that thinks they deserve it. Welcome to corporate America

May I ask how much experience you have in your field?

We can agree to disagree but the difference is I don't think I deserve it, I know I do. I do a very good job at looking at things impartially and in this situation I do feel singled out and there are double standards. I have 8 years experience in my field. One thing I can probably say as I'm not good at the workplace politics and I've been told that it's a necessary evil if one wants to move up, so perhaps that is something I get more involved in.

Originally Posted by Maestro

Because of Covid many companies are take this as an opportunity to do things differently whether is make sense or not. Lots of companies are doing the top to bottom reorganization, they are just shaking things up to see what falls out. Then add on all the other social activism going on, companies are trying to put up a good front they are going to right those so call injustices. Today if you fall into a group which no one cares to virtual signaling about you are pretty much screwed, they do not care if you stay or go, they just want you to keep your mouth shut and do your job.

I would agree you do not want to between a wife and husband at work, that is not going to end well. Even having someone in another department always copying your boss on everything is not a good situation by itself. Add in a personal relationship between the two makes all that much worse.

As someone suggested, if you like the company and want to stay, see if you can work in another department or group. If that is not a possibility look elsewhere, there are lots of opportunities out there today and it is not worth being unhappy.

I agree with you. I think companies now have a stance of "The work is getting done, so that's good enough for us and it doesn't matter what damage it's doing in the background or WHO it's damaging". As mentioned earlier, I'm not looking to stay here. I just need to find a good match for another company that I can grow with and that's definitely not something I am going to rush.

Originally Posted by King Rudi

This.

I was going to ask the same thing.

OP, from what I read; it seems that your expectation versus the end result (maybe not the final end, but where you currently are) vary; thus resulting in your disdain. From being someone who sat on the other side of the desk, typically when we pull back in association with employees that we were comfortable with, there is a reason behind it. The reason will never be disclosed to you, regardless of your employer; that is if you stay with corporate type roles.

I get the hurt feelings aspect of not being given the credit due on projects. I deal with this often. I pour everything into my projects to deliver as close to perfection as possible, there are no perfect projects (Each project has it's own problems, this is where we as professionals asses and overcome. Projects are nothing more than learning lessons of what we did things wrong this time, to improve upon with the next project.) yet I still get no credit for what I've done personally. I shouldn't get credit, we are a team. Even if the project is something that I have shed light on and executed, at the end of the day, it needed to be completed; regardless of how I feel about it. I'm not here for accolades on getting my job done, I'm here for a paycheck; completing projects is how I get the paycheck. If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't be here. This mentality is what keeps me grounded in my position.

I'll be honest here, it seems like the entire post is a really lengthy way of saying "It isn't fair." I'd keep this under your hat. Nothing about corporate business is fair. The business isn't tailored around you and your happiness; it's engineered to make the company money. Regardless of your position, unless COO/CEO, the company is built to sustain itself with or without you. Removal of ego is key here. Understand your role, realize, that regardless of where you work, it will be like this most everywhere in a corporate position. Change your mindset and expectations, you'll be a happier person.

The alternative to this, if you're unhappy, do something. Create your own happiness. Business is business. It's not a therapy session about how you feel. How you feel doesn't make the company money, which is why they employee you in the first place. Co-worker's may like you, but your position isn't based upon whether or not you're a likable person. If this company isn't for you, then there is no need to deliver a laundry list of why, when you leave. Again, it's business, your personal feelings have no place here. It's preferable to work someplace we enjoy, or to do something that we enjoy doing, but again; it's business. Do whatever you need to find a happy medium. Balance of work and home life is most important.

Yes, to an extent there is some "It isn't fair" in my post but keep in mind it's built up over some time and I'm trying to look at it impartially. I've gone over and beyond doing things that were not in my job description to better the company. Had I not done those, yes, I would have still met and exceeded all of my KPIs and PDPs. So yes it is a little frustrating when you try to go the extra mile and there is zero recognition when those projects to pick up.

I admit I need to do a better job of transactional-izing work, which is the gist of your post. I have a personality where I do take things personally sometimes and am quick to get defensive so that's probably why I feel the way I do about my situation. Definitely appreciate your feedback though. It reminded me that I'm here for a reason (paycheck) and really not go over and beyond when it's not recognized and save it for a company that does reward such efforts.



I do appreciate everyone's feedback as it has helped me look at things less personally. Hopefully I end up in a better place in the near future and this time I will be picky as well to make sure not only that the role lines up with what I want to do but that the company itself meets the criteria.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by Rahul718

I have a personality where I do take things personally sometimes and am quick to get defensive so that's probably why I feel the way I do about my situation. Definitely appreciate your feedback though. It reminded me that I'm here for a reason (paycheck) and really not go over and beyond when it's not recognized and save it for a company that does reward such efforts.



I do appreciate everyone's feedback as it has helped me look at things less personally. Hopefully I end up in a better place in the near future and this time I will be picky as well to make sure not only that the role lines up with what I want to do but that the company itself meets the criteria.

Same here. That's why I picked up on it. It's very difficult not to become emotional over something that you put effort into. This is exactly why I touched on the subject. Just try to keep in the back of your mind, why you are there and adjust attitude accordingly.

Best of luck in your search in the future.

[unluky]

Simple - Leave. This is 100% always my advice - as it almost NEVER gets better. If they make changes to make you happy - they resent you and treat you differently. You become "that guy". If they don't - you stew and make yourself miserable and your work ethic will go in the shitter. Ask me how I know?

But then when you decide this - you have to be honest with yourself. If you can't land a job like you have or higher at your same pay or higher - are you worth it to your current job? Not unusual to take a little step backwards to change jobs, but it's usually worth it. You usually move up quicker though as you are a LOT better employee than you were when you started there, because you learned a lot - right?

NOTHING worse than being unhappy with your job when you spend so much of your time there and get so much self worth (which you obviously do) from it. My last company (and my favorite job ever) sold to a public company. I used to talk to the old owners on a weekly basis directly - they were great. Once the new company accountants came in and started telling us how it was gonna be - I turned in my notice. I was going to take 6 months off and just sell my house and chill. Within a week the word was out and I was being called and within 2 weeks I was convinced to take on a 6 month consulting job - but it needed to be started ASAP. There went my 6 months of beach time. That was 3.5 years ago and I am still here and last year was my 2nd most profitable year ever. I probably put in 20% less office time here too as part of my deal to accept it. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can't be happy elsewhere. Put the word out, see what's out there. If your current job does not do anything to keep you - then you have your answer anyway.

Happiness is ALWAYS worth more than $. That I promise you.

[TheWatchGuy]

have you tried taking a shit in her desk?

my actual advice is find something to have in your back pocket and go in and demand changes. If they want you and will commit to changing, good for you, you can stay and move up. If they arent willing to or give you some wishy washy answer, time to leave.

And dont worry about a 1:1 job opportunity. The more important things to consider is how good of a company is it, how much opportunity for growth is there realistically, and will you enjoy the work enough to put in the effort to move up? You know what isnt working at your current place, so use that to help you in your search and during interviews.

Ive switched companies 2 times now in the last 7 years. 1st time was because I didnt think id be able to move up, and went to a place that gave me that promotion and commitments to help me move up. They wooed me with money, title, etc and I was young and naive and didnt think about what I actually wanted in a company. The 2nd time I switched was because they didnt honor those commitments and the workplace culture was terrible. Took a pay cut, took a title demotion, but it was a much better company and ive been much more happy and have blown past the levels I was at in the other companies. Every time i moved, i learned what i did/didnt like and used that in my next job search. And if you are as good as you say at your job, it shouldnt be an issue finding a new one.

My last bit of advice is dont worry that youll get fired if you go to management and ask them to make commitments. Thats how you end up compromising and stay unhappy. Do make a plan that if they do fire you, you either have a job opportunity lined up, or have a plan to make it through a jobless period of time while you find the right opportunity.

[cremem3]

First thing that comes to mind is to start shopping around on the market for other offers. Take care of yourself first, money wise and ambition wise. You will not get that where you are -- your Senior Director has his own games to play, and he knows he's in a position where he has massive leverage over you and an accomplice in the matter.

I was in a similar position. Without going into too much detail, i've found that it's important to step back and realize that nothing ever happens by accident (credit omission, for example), and in general, it's a "ask for forgiveness later" approach when egos are involved, especially when folks know they can pull rank.

I usually let people play their games and wait in the background to see how things play out and look for openings/alliances then, and put all my firepower behind a winning warlord. In order to hunt, you need to understand the jungle and the apex predator dynamics, lest you get your head cut off. And remember that a corporate career can be measured in decades, not years -- if it isn't your time now, you have to sort of put your head down and continue to sniff out beneficial positioning.

It sounds like your former manager has way too much leverage on you. He knows it, which is why he's doing egregious things like CCing your manager via proxy and personal relationships, and outright taking credit for your work. He wouldn't be so bold if he didn't understand his powers.

Shop around, interview, and negotiate for a fat compensation package in the New Year. If your manager or skip needs you this badly and is at risk of losing you, actualize it into market value. In the meantime, get deeper into a passion and dissociate yourself from work. Balance in your life makes a lot of these things seem not as serious.

[MKSixer]

OP, you've gotten some very good advice here.

I have 30 years of corporate experience and I will only add one thing: Remove all emotion from your corporate dealings. They are not your friends. They are your colleagues, at best and may be neutral. Some may be your benign enemies and quite a few may be your saboteurs. Perform an assessment and keep your mouth shut.

You have no friends in corporate America as long as you are in the same company. I say this from brutal experience.

Find another company.

Best of luck to you and I know you can replicate the same success at another organization. Preferably your direct market competitor. Sniff them out and see what happens.

Cheers-mk

[Alfisti]

I was in a somewhat similar position, sort of anyways. My play was to find something else, concrete offer, then I started turning the screws on the current employer. In the end they agreed to my (very reasonable) requests and I stayed where I was. But there is an element of confidence and assurance to have that offer letter in your back pocket if things go pear shaped internally.

To be clear, i was extremely reasonable, and money was secondary, it was more about flexibility.