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      06-11-2015, 04:18 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
No, because something is beyond nature or what we are calling supernatural doesn't imply god. It only implies that we don't yet understand it. As we expand out understanding of the universe more of it will become apparent and natural. At some point all will be natural not supernatural and doesn't require some guy in the sky making it happen.
So how do you believe this universe came into existence? (I assume you believe in the big bang but enlighten me anyway)
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      06-11-2015, 04:23 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
You don't have to throw it away. Most Christians believe in that chart.

Theistic evolution is what tony is talking about earlier and it's what the majority of Christians subscribe to. Apparently you missed the boat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
As I said before, God could have fully well used evolution to bring us to where we are today. But the God of the Bible isn't one to use evolution.

Evolution is wasteful, slow, random, and chaotic. Does this sound anything like the God of the Bible?

Guess I did miss the boat
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      06-11-2015, 04:28 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Let me ask you a question: is rape bad, always?

If atheism stuck to it's beliefs, the answer would be no. Atheism teaches we are just evolved mammals. Well, other animals rape. So its fine for humans to rape as well, right?

Hopefully you don't see it that way. Where did you come with this sense of right/wrong? Why is rape bad?

Imagine you came from a family where you had an abusive father. You learned from him that rape is just what it is. Would rape be alright then? You don't get morals from your parents.

Now imagine a society where rape is accepted. Would it still be alright to just go around raping women and children? You obviously don't get morals from society.

How do you account for this sense of right/wrong? If we are evolved monkeys, why don't monkeys share this sense of right/wrong in their societies?
Other societies also have ethics. Other religions also have the same codes of conduct on morality and ethics. Christians did not come up with it.

Prior to the Christian religion - even in western society, ethics was a thing in Greek and Roman time periods. They strove for virtue. Socrates is renown for creating ethical concepts and morals. He existed before Christianity.

Other societies have had ethics as a core principle of their societies prior to even the time of Socrates. The great philosopher Confucius also had came up with ethics and ethical behavior in society over 100 years before Socrates. All of them came up with these prior to the existence of Christianity and independently back in 550 BC.

The world was not crude and rude before Christianity existed. Christianity is a very young religion by comparison to others.
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      06-11-2015, 04:30 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
No, because something is beyond nature or what we are calling supernatural doesn't imply god. It only implies that we don't yet understand it. As we expand out understanding of the universe more of it will become apparent and natural. At some point all will be natural not supernatural and doesn't require some guy in the sky making it happen.
I am sorry to break this to you but this is completely ignorant reasoning.
On the one hand you are saying we don't understand it, yet in your very next sentence you are saying you are sure what the conclusions will be.
How difficult it is for you to acknowledge that if you arent sure then you CANNOTB conclude what we will know in the future. And if you dont know then you cannot conclude that there is no supernatural.

One of the thing that strikes me about people like you is that you are not interested in knowing the truth, you are not interested in knowing whether or not God exist. All you are interested in, is seeking that as much people as possible accept that there isn't a God because in your heart and man that's what you would like..............Until science, evolution or wherever you believe in gives as clear an account of the origins of the universe, of good and evil, of the existence of entropy, of how life came from non life, and why life always ends in death, then you all need to chill. because Atheism has way more gaps way more questions that it cannot answer than it does.

the difference with theism is that it accounts for every single one of those questions. ALL OF THEM. you might not agree with the answers it gives but it answers them all. it is also interesting that not a single claim made by the Bible has been so far emphatically disproven with any kind of evidence whatsoever. even if I were no a Christian, having a personal relationship with God, looking at the arguments themselves, I find theism way more meaningful in addressing these issues that what is postulated by the atheists,





Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
You get it from your parents, you get it from society, you get it from everywhere. It has nothing to do with religion. A moral is not religious.
Yea, and where did your parents get it from?
and where did society get it from
and why is it just, everywhere?

I think people like you need to think more about these issues before you talk away in ignorance
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      06-11-2015, 04:31 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
No, because something is beyond nature or what we are calling supernatural doesn't imply god. It only implies that we don't yet understand it. As we expand out understanding of the universe more of it will become apparent and natural. At some point all will be natural not supernatural and doesn't require some guy in the sky making it happen.
Because we can figure out an infinitesimally small amount of information about our universe proves there is no God?

Not yet understanding something only implies that we don't understand it. It most certainly does not imply a guaranteed understanding at a future juncture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Yes exactly. Because it's hopeless and hard to deal with doesn't mean we need to make up a story to make us feel better. Hence my comments on this very thing before. It's a crutch so people have hope rather than self reliance.
What kind of self reliance can you conjure up that lets your soul live on after your body dies? The only hope christians have is for everlasting life, what ever that means. I'm not sure, but i sure hope it's given to me. I know i can't get it though self reliance.

Now food, shelter, job, survival, are all those things i'll use my self reliance for. Sure, i'll hope for blessings along the way as well as guidance, and as long as it doesn't come at the expense of other people, i'll do everything within my earthly power (read self reliance) to accomplish my goals. But that's got little to nothing to do with the hope and faith christians have.
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      06-11-2015, 04:35 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Yes exactly. Because it's hopeless and hard to deal with doesn't mean we need to make up a story to make us feel better. Hence my comments on this very thing before. It's a crutch so people have hope rather than self reliance.
"An Atheistís View On Life



I will live my life according to these beliefs

God does not exist

It is just foolish to think

That there is a God with a cosmic plan

That an all-powerful God brings purpose to the pain and suffering in the world

Itís a comforting thought however

Is only wishful...thinking

People can do as they please without eternal consequences

The idea that

I am deserving of Hell

Because of sin

Is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power

The more you have the happier you will be

Our existence has no grand meaning or purpose

In a world with no God

There is freedom to be who I want to be

But with God

Everything is fine

It is ridiculous to think

I am lost and in need of saving



Versus A Christianís View On Life

(NowÖread from bottom to top to see a different view.)



I am lost and in need of saving

It is ridiculous to think

Everything is fine

But with God

There is freedom to be who I want to be

In a world with no God

Our existence has no grand meaning or purpose

The more you have the happier you will be

Is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power

Because of sin

I am deserving of Hell

The idea that

People can do as they please without eternal consequences

Is only wishful thinking

Is a comforting thought, however

That an all-powerful God brings purpose to the pain and suffering in the world

That there is a God with a cosmic plan

It is just foolish to think

God does not exist

I will live my life according to these beliefs
"



~ Author Unknown

Just to put it in perspective, the difference between our views on life.
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      06-11-2015, 04:36 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Guess I did miss the boat
Yes, because you don't agree with the majority of Christians.
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      06-11-2015, 04:37 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Other societies also have ethics. Other religions also have the same codes of conduct on morality and ethics. Christians did not come up with it.

Prior to the Christian religion - even in western society, ethics was a thing in Greek and Roman time periods. They strove for virtue. Socrates is renown for creating ethical concepts and morals. He existed before Christianity.

Other societies have had ethics as a core principle of their societies prior to even the time of Socrates. The great philosopher Confucius also had came up with ethics and ethical behavior in society over 100 years before Socrates. All of them came up with these prior to the existence of Christianity and independently back in 550 BC.

The world was not crude and rude before Christianity existed. Christianity is a very young religion by comparison to others.
Socrates may have existed before the manifestation of Christ on Earth and Christianity, but he did not exist before Judaism, which is the foundation from which Christianity sprung........did you not know that the Torah, is exactly the Christian Old testament?

of course they came up with them independently, and rightly so. the same God that created Abraham, Moses, and manifested himself as Jesus Christ also created Socrates and Confucius and we are told in the scriptures that the moral law is written into the hearts of EVERY man. if this is true then we do not have to wonder why all these men in diverse places who were seekers of truth came up with remarkably similar conclusions about right and wrong.......
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      06-11-2015, 04:39 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Other societies also have ethics. Other religions also have the same codes of conduct on morality and ethics. Christians did not come up with it.

Prior to the Christian religion - even in western society, ethics was a thing in Greek and Roman time periods. They strove for virtue. Socrates is renown for creating ethical concepts and morals. He existed before Christianity.

Other societies have had ethics as a core principle of their societies prior to even the time of Socrates. The great philosopher Confucius also had came up with ethics and ethical behavior in society over 100 years before Socrates. All of them came up with these prior to the existence of Christianity and independently back in 550 BC.

The world was not crude and rude before Christianity existed. Christianity is a very young religion by comparison to others.
The Old Testament was well established by the 3rd Century BC. Atheism has only been around for a mere few centuries by comparison.
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      06-11-2015, 04:41 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yes, because you don't agree with the majority of Christians.
Does that somehow make me wrong?

If 10 million believe rape is right, and I don't, am I wrong?
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      06-11-2015, 04:50 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
"An Atheistís View On Life



I will live my life according to these beliefs

God does not exist

It is just foolish to think

That there is a God with a cosmic plan

That an all-powerful God brings purpose to the pain and suffering in the world

Itís a comforting thought however

Is only wishful...thinking

People can do as they please without eternal consequences

The idea that

I am deserving of Hell

Because of sin

Is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power

The more you have the happier you will be

Our existence has no grand meaning or purpose

In a world with no God

There is freedom to be who I want to be

But with God

Everything is fine

It is ridiculous to think

I am lost and in need of saving



Versus A Christianís View On Life

(NowÖread from bottom to top to see a different view.)



I am lost and in need of saving

It is ridiculous to think

Everything is fine

But with God

There is freedom to be who I want to be

In a world with no God

Our existence has no grand meaning or purpose

The more you have the happier you will be

Is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power

Because of sin

I am deserving of Hell

The idea that

People can do as they please without eternal consequences

Is only wishful thinking

Is a comforting thought, however

That an all-powerful God brings purpose to the pain and suffering in the world

That there is a God with a cosmic plan

It is just foolish to think

God does not exist

I will live my life according to these beliefs
"



~ Author Unknown

Just to put it in perspective, the difference between our views on life.

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      06-11-2015, 04:52 PM   #254
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Everyone has its time. No point on arguing about religion and beliefs......leave it in the hands of god.....thats being humble, thats trusting his will. We as christian shouldnt judge others. If you dont wanna be judged, dont judge others.....some comments are tough to read. I am no saint, but I try to be a better person everyday trying not to sin and asking god to guide me instead of making me make my own decisions.
Anyway.....Im going back to the car threads haha.
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      06-11-2015, 04:54 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
The only hope christians have is for everlasting life, what ever that means. I'm not sure, but i sure hope it's given to me. I know i can't get it though self reliance.
What is it that a Christian has to do to ensure everlasting life?
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      06-11-2015, 04:54 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
Socrates may have existed before the manifestation of Christ on Earth and Christianity, but he did not exist before Judaism, which is the foundation from which Christianity sprung........did you not know that the Torah, is exactly the Christian Old testament?

of course they came up with them independently, and rightly so. the same God that created Abraham, Moses, and manifested himself as Jesus Christ also created Socrates and Confucius and we are told in the scriptures that the moral law is written into the hearts of EVERY man. if this is true then we do not have to wonder why all these men in diverse places who were seekers of truth came up with remarkably similar conclusions about right and wrong.......
WTF are you talking about? Socrates was not christian, nor was Confucious. They didn't even believe in god. This all happened prior to when the christian god was even defined. Their cultures and countries had no contact with the middle east where all these Abrahamic religions came from.
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      06-11-2015, 05:16 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
What is it that a Christian has to do to ensure everlasting life?
John 6:40
Quote:
For my Fatherís will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
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      06-11-2015, 05:19 PM   #258
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So amusing.
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      06-11-2015, 05:22 PM   #259
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If you believe in the bible then my moral evolution could not have happened over millions of years.
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      06-11-2015, 05:23 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

BTW, this was a man made law in Israel.
Quote:
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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      06-11-2015, 05:26 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
You are wrong. You know how many wars are started by Christians trying to convert people? The entire Crusades was caused by Christians trying to spread the faith and kill Muslims. The Spanish missionaries who arrived in the Americas to convert people nearly made the Mayan population extinct. People were regularly beaten and killed if they did not convert to Christianity. Hitler was himself a believer he was doing God's work when he decided he wanted to take over the world and eradicate the Jews (who were not Christian).

So yes, history is replete with the suffering religion has caused.
What he said +1
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      06-11-2015, 05:28 PM   #262
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If you believe in the bible then my moral evolution could not have happened over millions of years.
Even if you don't believe in the bible, your moral evolution had to happen over at most 1million years, but more likely to be a couple hundred thousand years. And many religions, including christianity played a role in that evolution.
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      06-11-2015, 05:28 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
WTF are you talking about? Socrates was not christian, nor was Confucious. They didn't even believe in god. This all happened prior to when the christian god was even defined. Their cultures and countries had no contact with the middle east where all these Abrahamic religions came from.
do you really read in order to understand?

I never said they were Christians, nor do I know what Socrates really beveled.
All I know about Socrates comes from information written about him by Plato and others and translated into English because I do not speak Greek

but here is what we know. Socrates was accused of Denying the gods of the state............this does not mean he believed in no god at all. What it could have meant is that he did not believe in the gods accepted by those who were the political powers of his day. In the same way if I Live in a country where Islam is the State religion, I could be in serious trouble for denying Allah.......doesn't mean I am not a theist, means i do not believe Allah is God.

Also, Polytheism was different in Ancient Greece from the way we view religious matters now. Many of the greco-roman Gods were gods imported.
from Mesopotamia, which is where Abraham was from, so please relax
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      06-11-2015, 05:34 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
As I said before, God could have fully well used evolution to bring us to where we are today. But the God of the Bible isn't one to use evolution.

Evolution is wasteful, slow, random, and chaotic. Does this sound anything like the God of the Bible?

Guess I did miss the boat
What? Wasteful? Please go about your business and beleive in whatever you want and let us non believers live....
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