BMW Munich plant ceases ICE car production in 2027. Begins Neue Klasse EVs in 2026

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by SpaceSilver.X1

that reminds me... I've often wonder what will happen to the value of pure ICE cars 5 or 10 years after 100% of all new cars are required to be full EV(or zero emission via other means).

It will depend a lot on location, of course.

Outside the US, like in the EU, I'd imagine they will drop off pretty heavily in value. As most places in the EU, from my understanding, charge higher taxes for ICE cars annually and I'd imagine those might increase.

In the US, I expect ICE cars will have an initial bump in value then they'll drop off pretty quick. With the exception being collector worthy vehicles and perhaps sporty drive vehicles. It isn't clear though that the ICE cars of today will be all that desired by the crowd who wants ICE in 2035 or 2040. Where the cars ICE cars right now have drive by wire and increasingly no manual transmissions and other lack more driver engagement focused features.

I see the younger buyer crowd sticking to their love for EVs especially as "always on" cars become even more feature complete.

2035 is still over a decade out

[SpaceSilver.X1]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

2035 is still over a decade out

that's what I thought... people who were born after 9/11 can almost run for president after 2035...

until I realized that the 21st century is already almost over, with only 3/4 of the century remaining.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

And those things happened because the free market was choosing cars and creating the need/demand for the infrastructure to support the free choices consumers/taxpayers were making.

You are grossly misinformed about just how much your world is shaped for you--and not by market forces, but rather by those who own the media and create the markets when they decide they want to create markets.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

Whats wrong with cynical? You must be one of those who believes everything the government tells you? So how many WMDs did the U.S. find in Iraq & Afghanistan? Water is under the bridge already and we all know Cheney used media to crystalize public opinion with regard to going to War in Iraq. I'll never forget the days of Wolf Blizter shoving shit down every Americans throat of possible new locations of WMDs. Let me ask you why mass media and the general public ever need such information/intel, unless they were playing you. You are one naive guy.

I really recommended you pick up some books written by Edward Bernays to really grasp how the government and media go hand in hand with one another. Maybe you'll see through the veil. Perhaps its the banks made poor investments (trillion dollar ones) on this EV/green agenda, and the government is it so that those investments don't flounder causing ruckus in markets.

Damn. Name dropping Bernays. Not something I expected on a car forum.

But very refreshing.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Neusser

You are grossly misinformed about just how much your world is shaped for you--and not by market forces, but rather by those who own the media and create the markets when they decide they want to create markets.

You think in the first third of the twentieth century the media was driving the infant and growing automobile industry? You’re very funny. And you were probably born in the 90s or 2000s.

[Th3DarkSide]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You think in the first third of the twentieth century the media was driving the infant and growing automobile industry? You’re very funny. And you were probably born in the 90s or 2000s.

Not probably definitely

[GinTonic]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You think in the first third of the twentieth century the media was driving the infant and growing automobile industry? You’re very funny. And you were probably born in the 90s or 2000s.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

Yep, it’s a newspaper printing press. Did you grow up reading the newspaper every day?

[GinTonic]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Yep, it a newspaper printing press. Did you grow up reading the newspaper every day?

Its the answer to your question.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

"You think in the first third of the twentieth century the media was driving the infant and growing automobile industry?"

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

Its the answer to your question.

No, actually it’s not. It’s a photo of a newspaper printing press and that’s all it is.

Did you grow up reading the newspaper? I’m guessing you didn’t since you didn’t answer “yes” and based on a few other things you’ve posted that give clues to your age. Of course, since you didn’t answer I don’t know and my guess could be wrong.

I did grow up reading the newspaper. Every single morning of the week. I assure you the news media was an entirely different animal back then than it is today. Today’s news media and yesterday’s news media have almost nothing in common.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You think in the first third of the twentieth century the media was driving the infant and growing automobile industry? You’re very funny. And you were probably born in the 90s or 2000s.

I'm 46, work in publishing, and have lived overseas for 20 years.

I have seen much of the world.

You appear misguided, but you are free to do as you like.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I'm 46, work in publishing, and have lived overseas for 20 years.

I have seen much of the world.

You appear misguided, but you are free to do as you like.

Please explain how you think from 1900-ish - 1940-ish the media drove the public’s embrace of motorized transportation with the internal combustion engine and how the public would have reacted to this new method of transportation in the absence of the media influencing them. I’m very interested to hear your thoughts on that.

[GinTonic]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

No, actually it’s not. It’s a photo of a newspaper printing press and that’s all it is.

Did you grow up reading the newspaper? I’m guessing you didn’t since you didn’t answer “yes” and based on a few other things you’ve posted that give clues to your age. Of course, since you didn’t answer I don’t know and my guess could be wrong.

I'm 35, and yes I grew up reading the newspaper, watching news on TV, and now social media. I was also born in Poland, so don't assume I was raised like an American, despite growing up in the U.S. I'm fluent in both languages, travel back home whenever I can, and have studied in Krakow. That said, I've also visited 20 countries. Europeans are very skeptical of their governments - Generally what is said, or spoken by the government is usually associated with ulterior motives. Pessimism runs deep, past the friendly facades. Meanwhile, Americans have never experienced a war on their land, so they live in lala land where everything is great.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I did grow up reading the newspaper. Every single morning of the week. I assure you the news media was an entirely different animal back then than it is today. Today’s news media and yesterday’s news media have almost nothing in common.

Yes, we know that media / journalism (whatever part of that exists that) today is not what it used to be. The reason I posted a photo of a printing press is because thats what media was during the first one third of the twentieth century, including magazines, and the radio.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

I'm 35, and yes I grew up reading the newspaper, watching news on TV, and now social media. I was also born in Poland, so don't assume I was raised like an American, despite growing up in the U.S. I'm fluent in both languages, travel back home whenever I can, and have studied in Krakow. That said, I've also visited 20 countries. Europeans are very skeptical of their governments - Generally what is said, or spoken by the government is usually associated with ulterior motives. Pessimism runs deep, past the friendly facades. Meanwhile, Americans have never experienced a war on their land, so they live in lala land where everything is great.



Yes, we know that media / journalism (whatever part of that exists that) today is not what it used to be. The reason I posted a photo of a printing press is because thats what media was during the first one third of the twentieth century, including magazines, and the radio.

I see. That makes good sense. I’m sorry I didn’t pick up on what you were trying to convey. Thanks for explaining.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Please explain how you think from 1900-ish - 1940-ish the media drove the public’s embrace of motorized transportation with the internal combustion engine and how the public would have reacted to this new method of transportation in the absence of the media influencing them. I’m very interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Newspapers and radio spread information. The public took notice, and their opinions and reactions were shaped by the way the content was presented.

In the absence of such means of mass communication, the public would have had a much slower uptake rate, but it is difficult to say more, since this did not happen.

These days things are far more advanced, since both advertising and propaganda were mastered by Edward Bernays, who drove the new media model. That said, the means by which the public are influenced to act are not so different; the major difference today is that the psychological aspects of creating and maintaining consent have been nearly perfected.

[carjoy]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

I mean all due respect what you said doesn't have much substance either. Everything you said above is again a pipe dream, but you could very well be correct. pretty condescending to use phrases like "whining incessantly"

I personally love EVs and whipping them around the city and daily driving. But i also love the sound of a v12 and v10.

Where are people going to plug these in? Where are the plans for infrastructure?

I don’t think anyone here debates we love the efficiency of an EV and the visceral feel of a V12. If it was possible to achieve both things we would be debating here.

It’s when people use every excuse and not don’t use logic, realize progress doesn’t cater to the whims of a small fraction of enthusiasts and car lovers, that we move forward for the greater good, not to appease a minute segment. Nothing to do with being a Republican or Democrat, left or right leaning, it’s about reducing our carbon footprint, lowering pollution and saving the planet we all share.

EV government mandates worldwide aren’t political, they are efforts in earnest to reduce the damage made during the industrial age to current day by coal production and the broad use of ICEs.

It is time to put politics aside and realize the world doesn’t revolve around the needs of the less than 1%. We have bigger problems to worry about than losing the feel, smells and roaring sounds of an ICE engine. Our planet.

Each generation keeps passing the baton, each keeps saying ICE’s haven’t contributed to global warming, etc.. The facts, science says otherwise. The recent temperature changes worldwide are the planet telling us to wake the freak up.

Some just want to live in the past, but Progress is a stubborn thing; unstoppable and unavoidable.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by carjoy

I don’t think anyone here debates we love the efficiency of an EV and the visceral feel of a V12. If it was possible to achieve both things we would be debating here.

It’s when people use every excuse and not don’t use logic, realize progress doesn’t cater to the whims of a small fraction of enthusiasts and car lovers, that we move forward for the greater good, not to appease a minute segment. Nothing to do with being a Republican or Democrat, left or right leaning, it’s about reducing our carbon footprint, lowering pollution and saving the planet we all share.

EV government mandates worldwide aren’t political, they are efforts in earnest to reduce the damage made during the industrial age to current day by coal production and the broad use of ICEs.

It is time to put politics aside and realize the world doesn’t revolve around the needs of the less than 1%. We have bigger problems to worry about than losing the feel, smells and roaring sounds of an ICE engine. Our planet.

Each generation keeps passing the baton, each keeps saying ICE’s haven’t contributed to global warming, etc.. The facts, science says otherwise. The recent temperature changes worldwide are the planet telling us to wake the freak up.

Some just want to live in the past, but Progress is a stubborn thing; unstoppable and unavoidable.

"The Greater Good"

It isn't about the greater good. Nor is it progress. Nor does the science say what you claim; select segments of "the science" say this, while the others are silenced.

And, of course, science is a work in progress. When one claims the science is settled, one demonstrates that one has no understanding of the scientific method or science.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by carjoy

The facts, science says otherwise. The recent temperature changes worldwide are the planet telling us to wake the freak up.

Who's facts? Michael Mann's facts or your basic geology 101 text book facts?

Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated
are confident they are acting on their own free will.
Joseph Goebbels

[infinitekidM2C]

Putting ICE on ice. Sad.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Surely there is more to the story. Tesla cars are very popular in Norway and their winters are a lot colder than Chicago. If it were simply “EVs die when cold” they shouldn’t be the #1 sellers in Nordic countries.

You might find this report interesting. In particular note the comments the Norwegians make regarding how Teslas perform during their winter months. We frequently talk about the preference of things in entire countries as if all countries are roughly equivalent in size and influence and overall dynamics in the world just because they are a sovereign country. That, of course, is not true. I think it’s worth noting Norway is basically tiny and their embrace of EVs isn’t even comparable to an individual state in the United States. Norway is less than half the physical size of the state of Texas and it has approximately 1/6th of the population of the state of Texas. 5.4 million people in Norway. Just under 30 million in the state of Texas. Chicagoland has a population almost twice as big as the nation of Norway at approximately 9.5 million.

[MADBMWX5MC]

^Very interesting report. Norway electricty is mostly produced via Hydropower and a small sliver via wind power. Seems to be a win-win for them.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You might find this report interesting. In particular note the comments the Norwegians make regarding how Teslas perform during their winter months. We frequently talk about the preference of things in entire countries as if all countries are roughly equivalent in size and influence and overall dynamics in the world just because they are a sovereign country. That, of course, is not true. I think it’s worth noting Norway is basically tiny and their embrace of EVs isn’t even comparable to an individual state in the United States. Norway is less than half the physical size of the state of Texas and it has approximately 1/6th of the population of the state of Texas. 5.4 million people in Norway. Just under 30 million in the state of Texas. Chicagoland has a population almost twice as big as the nation of Norway at approximately 9.5 million.

what is more interesting is that Norway's main source of income is petroleum export