Occupy Wall Street: How many of the 99% do we have on this forum?

[BMWinNorthdakota]

Flawed socialist liberals that dream of their equal society ITT.

The whole notion of only 15% taxes / no corporation taxes is fucking laughable at best. Even if that was the case, the fuck would be wrong with those levels of taxes? Afterall, it's only fair when comparing it to the middle classes rate, right?

[txz4]

Originally Posted by tag824

I never singled out any group of people, I just think the capital gains tax is bs. Why is the system tilted in favor of someone that makes money off of money vs. those that make money by actually working in the first place. Wouldn't you call this favoritism?

im pretty sure they make money off of risk... wait let me check ANY finance text ever made. Yep, im right. You make money off risk... not money. Money doesn't go through mitosis. Its not like owning rabbits where if you own alot of them you will likely have more than you started later on.

Does anyone have any of the cha cha cha chia money that grows itself and duplicates? because i would love some.

Capital gains tax is 15% becasue they were already taxed at least once on it. Its within the best interest of government to keep this number lower than earned income.

Lets say: i earned income and paid income tax, i then invest the money and collected profit and paid 15% on that. i further reinvested and profited and paid 15% on that money too (derived from previous investment, money from that derived from income at one point).....So it looks to me like they are being taxed several times on the same money.

make sense?

[Jebus335]

Originally Posted by carve

Turns out, I wasn't so wrong.

No, what I originally quoted was completely false, so you were wrong. It's your theory, but it is not SPECIFICALLY why Fannie and Freddie were created.

Edit: BTW, Fannie doesn't make/originate the loans, banks/lenders do.

Originally Posted by carve

When the banks had reduced liquidity, what loans would the make first with what liquidity they had: the high risk ones or the low risk ones? Perhaps I did have a bit of hyperbole there, but can you at least agree that over the past 20 years it has been legislated to make riskier loans?

I see what you are saying, but you are making reference to present day economic conditions. I'm not sure if low risk was an option during the great depression (not that we are too far off from our own). I do agree with the last sentence, the everyone should have equal opportunity mentality has definitely enabled loose lending practices

[number335]

Originally Posted by txz4

im pretty sure they make money off of risk... wait let me check ANY finance text ever made. Yep, im right. You make money off risk... not money. Money doesn't go through mitosis. Its not like owning rabbits where if you own alot of them you will likely have more than you started later on.

Does anyone have any of the cha cha cha chia money that grows itself and duplicates? because i would love some.

Capital gains tax is 15% becasue they were already taxed at least once on it. Its within the best interest of government to keep this number lower than earned income.

Lets say: i earned income and paid income tax, i then invest the money and collected profit and paid 15% on that. i further reinvested and profited and paid 15% on that money too (derived from previous investment, money from that derived from income at one point).....So it looks to me like they are being taxed several times on the same money.

make sense?

Don't you just pay taxes on the gains, and not what you invested? The gains are considered income, therefor taxed. At least that's what my understanding of it is.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by matthewk

ugh... The "money" that these people are using to make "money" has already been taxed. A lower calital gains tax, encourages those with capital to risk it on investments and in return if their risk, generates reward then they are taxed at a lower rate.

This kind of thinking, not looking at the big picture of capital gains taxes, or any other facet of our economy as a whole is a big part of what's wrong. Sure tax the people that make money off of money so they can be just like the people that work in the first place. The result will be that people with capital (money) will just hang on to it rather than make risky investments (loans) to companies that will hire the people that you refer to as those who make money by working.

This isn't rocket science, if you didn't have someone with money and someone without money that needed to borrow it, and an incentive for the person who has money to risk it on a loan, the economy wouldn't work. Unless you want to start over (and I am talking at ground zero) with a completely new economy, nothing can change without complete meltdown. WE're a credit based economy, there's no excapting that.

The money that has already been taxed is NOT being taxed again. Only new money that has not been taxed yet (the Profits on capital gains) is subject to the 15% tax.

Our economic system worked just fine for decades with capital gains being taxed at the same rate as labor. This country was made great without special 15% tax advantages that by far the majority go to the most wealthy. We don't need it now.

If record low capital gains taxes are such great economic engines, then our economy should be exploding right now. If the impacts of low taxes were so great, there should be wealthy people on every street corner begging people to borrow money from them. In reality, money is being held out of the market in safe places while we have 15% capital gains taxes. Lenders would rather buy US debt than to lend money to people.

We've heard all this economic theory before. And it never holds up to real world facts. We have awesome economic growth when capital gains was taxed the same as labor income, and we are in the shitter now with a 15% capital gains tax.

[matthewk]

There should be pre-requesite reading before starting these types of posts.

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economic.../dp/0465022529

[infinitekidM2C]

Originally Posted by matthewk

There should be pre-requesite reading before starting these types of posts.

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economic.../dp/0465022529

That book is $26.37. Who is going to pay for me to get that book? I think the rich people on this forum should buy that book for me.

[matthewk]

Originally Posted by 11Series

The money that has already been taxed is NOT being taxed again. Only new money that has not been taxed yet (the Profits on capital gains) is subject to the 15% tax.

Our economic system worked just fine for decades with capital gains being taxed at the same rate as labor. This country was made great without special 15% tax advantages that by far the majority go to the most wealthy. We don't need it now.

If record low capital gains taxes are such great economic engines, then our economy should be exploding right now. If the impacts of low taxes were so great, there should be wealthy people on every street corner begging people to borrow money from them. In reality, money is being held out of the market in safe places while we have 15% capital gains taxes. Lenders would rather buy US debt than to lend money to people.

We've heard all this economic theory before. And it never holds up to real world facts. We have awesome economic growth when capital gains was taxed the same as labor income, and we are in the shitter now with a 15% capital gains tax.

You're correlating two things that "in my opinion" have nothing to do with one and other. It's not the capital gains tax that is keeping money out of the "US" markets.

I see the point your intending to make, and on the surface sure it's believable if you believe that tax rates are keeping people sitting on their stockpiles. Why companies aren't lending is a completely different story.

[matthewk]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

That book is $26.37. Who is going to pay for me to get that book? I think the rich people on this forum should buy that book for me.

If you'd really read it, I'll loan you my copy. But I am sure someone would complain that I should be taxed for having the book to loan in the first place.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by txz4

Capital gains tax is 15% becasue they were already taxed at least once on it. Its within the best interest of government to keep this number lower than earned income.

Lets say: i earned income and paid income tax, i then invest the money and collected profit and paid 15% on that. i further reinvested and profited and paid 15% on that money too (derived from previous investment, money from that derived from income at one point).....So it looks to me like they are being taxed several times on the same money.

make sense?

That does not make sense, because you don't understand how capital gains taxes work.

If you earn 120,000 dollars as income on labor, and pay taxes on it, you might have 100,000 dollars after taxes to invest. (just an example, not actual tax rate).

You invest that 100,000 and get a 1 year return of 10,000 dollars. The original 100,000 you paid taxes on IS NOT SUBJECT TO CAPITAL GAINS TAXES!! Only the 10,000 dollars in NEW money gets taxed at 15%.

You reinvest the 108,500 and get your next year return of 10,850. Again, you NEVER pay taxes again on your 108,500 principle. You only pay taxes on the 10,850 new money that you earned and have never paid taxes on ever before.



I swear, when people get on this forum who have clearly never paid capital gains ever before, and start talking like this it makes me just shake my head. You guys have been suckered by the folks here who just want to pay less taxes on every dollar they earn through investment, than you pay on every dollar earned by your labor.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by matthewk

You're correlating two things that "in my opinion" have nothing to do with one and other. It's not the capital gains tax that is keeping money out of the "US" markets.

I see the point your intending to make, and on the surface sure it's believable if you believe that tax rates are keeping people sitting on their stockpiles. Why companies aren't lending is a completely different story.

I'm not saying that tax rates are keeping people sitting on their stockpiles.

I'm saying that YOUR claim that low tax rates causes people to invest isn't happening. Capital Gains taxes are super-low right now, and despite all your claims that super-low taxes results in increased investment, it clearly isn't happening. It doesn't work the way you claim it works.

[txz4]

Originally Posted by 11Series

That does not make sense, because you don't understand how capital gains taxes work.

If you earn 120,000 dollars as income on labor, and pay taxes on it, you might have 100,000 dollars after taxes to invest. (just an example, not actual tax rate).

You invest that 100,000 and get a 1 year return of 10,000 dollars. The original 100,000 you paid taxes on IS NOT SUBJECT TO CAPITAL GAINS TAXES!! Only the 10,000 dollars in NEW money gets taxed at 15%.

You reinvest the 108,500 and get your next year return of 10,850. Again, you NEVER pay taxes again on your principle. You only pay taxes on the new money that you earned and have never paid taxes on ever before.



I swear, when people get on this forum who have clearly never paid capital gains ever before, and start talking like this it makes me just shake my head. You guys have been suckered by the folks here who just want to pay less taxes on every dollar they earn through investment, than you pay on every dollar earned by your labor.

Might want to read what i said a little more carefully... i never said you got taxed on the full investment. I assumed everyone here would know you get taxed on the profit only. but thank goodness your here to .....err correct me.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Blake

all of my income comes from qualified dividends, i pay 15%, and i also pay quite a bit more money every year than most people pay to the IRS. why should it be raised? why should i pay exponentially more every year to support the government's social programs? usually, if you pay more for something it comes with a perk or benefit. i get no perk or 'thank you' from the government, i get the same services everyone else does and pay a hefty sum to do that. i'm sure i'll get roasted for this post by people of the other side, but i shouldn't have to empty my coffers every year to pay off the mistakes of this misguided government.

So what makes YOU special? Is it the bitchin' glasses?

All of your rant applies equally to people who earn the majority of their income from their own labor. None of your arguments would justify you getting preferential tax treatment over people who are paying taxes on their labor.



What you get out of paying the same tax rate as someone who pays taxes on their labor is a fully functioning Nation State with the (relatively) stable markets and infrastructure that allow you to profit off of capital gains. Try doing your same job in Somalia.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by txz4

Might want to read what i said a little more carefully... i never said you got taxed on the full investment. I assumed everyone here would know you get taxed on the profit only. but thank goodness your here to .....err correct me.

If you understand that the principal is never taxed again after being taxed one time, and one time only, how do you justify this statement:

Originally Posted by txz4

they are being taxed several times on the same money.

Identify a SINGLE DOLLAR that is ever being taxed several times, and I won't have to ....err correct you. If not, you are in need of .....er being corrected.

[matthewk]

Originally Posted by 11Series

I'm not saying that tax rates are keeping people sitting on their stockpiles.

I'm saying that YOUR claim that low tax rates causes people to invest isn't happening. Capital Gains taxes are super-low right now, and despite all your claims that super-low taxes results in increased investment, it clearly isn't happening. It doesn't work the way you claim it works.

I agree in the current circumstances it does seem as your describe. However in my opinion there are other factors at play in the environment which I think are outweighing the low taxes causing reduced investment.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

That book is $26.37. Who is going to pay for me to get that book? I think the rich people on this forum should buy that book for me.

You mean like a library?

Oh no!! SOCIALISM!! SOCIALISM!! Libraries are evil!! Throw all the books into a large body of water! Libraries are going to destroy our freeeeedumbs!!

[infinitekidM2C]

Originally Posted by 11Series

You mean like a library?

Oh no!! SOCIALISM!! SOCIALISM!! Libraries are evil!! Throw all the books into a large body of water! Libraries are going to destroy our freeeeedumbs!!

hahaha good one

[11Series]

Originally Posted by matthewk

I agree in the current circumstances it does seem as your describe. However in my opinion there are other factors at play in the environment which I think are outweighing the low taxes causing reduced investment.

That is exactly my point. Investment is NOT a function of taxes. When taxes on capital gains were much higher, there was NO lack of investment in this nation. Now when taxes are much lower, there is a huge lack of investment in this nation.

There is no cause and effect relationship between the gov't raising and lowering capital gains taxes, and how much investment we have historically seen, and are currently seeing. Other forces are just way too strong for tax subsidies on capital gains to be effective.

The sane conclusion is that special tax subsidies targeted for capital gains DO NOT work, and should not continue.

[Tag]

15% capital gains tax is such a load of horse shit. You can argue how it benefits investetment, that it's already been taxed once, put up all the books in the world that take your side and prop up your position all you want. It doesn't matter because it's still a giant, steaming load of propagandist horse shit they want us to believe so they can have their cake and eat it too.

[Undertow]

Originally Posted by tag824

15% capital gains tax is such a load of horse shit. You can argue how it benefits investetment, that it's already been taxed once, put up all the books in the world that take your side and prop up your position all you want. It doesn't matter because it's still a giant, steaming load of propagandist horse shit they want us to believe so they can have their cake and eat it too.

Better outlaw muni bonds while your at it! You pay 0% taxes on munis!

[Tag]

Originally Posted by m3inwaiting

Better outlaw muni bonds while your at it! You pay 0% taxes on munis!

You should get taxed for saying that.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by m3inwaiting

Better outlaw muni bonds while your at it! You pay 0% taxes on munis!

That tax rule actually makes sense. When you invest in muni's, you fund the operation of gov't in exchange for getting (typically) lower returns than if you were investing in corporate bonds.

You are doing a good thing in helping fund the operation of gov't directly through investment at a lower rate, and in exchange you pay less in taxes to fund the gov't in a different way. It is a wash where the gov't benefits from your direct investment as much, if not more than if they just collected the taxes on your profits if you invested in corporate bonds.