Apple vs. the FBI

[OptionlessM]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Um, I would expect in circumstances like this that the CEO get jailed for obstruction of justice, then the next, then the next, till they comply, for any version of any electronic device, running on any operating system, now or in the future, period. Every company you cited is a notorious hugely liberal leaning west coast tech company, who I loathe dealing with and do only out of necessity. I give every CEO of every one zero respect for their opinions.

This keeps getting better and better

[trey100]

People siding with Apple because of a worry about the government will spy on you - what are you people doing that is so bad? And why is it ok for Google to make billions over spying on you constantly but looking at a terrorist's phone is so bad?

Hardware is being developed that is going to track every single thing we do. TVs, refrigerators, etc. You lost your privacy a long time ago.

Terrorist organizations laugh at us arguing over this.

[OptionlessM]

Originally Posted by trey100

People siding with Apple because of a worry about the government will spy on you - what are you people doing that is so bad? And why is it ok for Google to make billions over spying on you constantly but looking at a terrorist's phone is so bad?

Hardware is being developed that is going to track every single thing we do. TVs, refrigerators, etc. You lost your privacy a long time ago.

Terrorist organizations laugh at us arguing over this.

Would you be willing to disclose your age? I am curious, because it's pretty rare for me to get a chance to interact with someone who shares views like that regarding privacy and government intrusion.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by trey100

People siding with Apple because of a worry about the government will spy on you - what are you people doing that is so bad? And why is it ok for Google to make billions over spying on you constantly but looking at a terrorist's phone is so bad?

Hardware is being developed that is going to track every single thing we do. TVs, refrigerators, etc. You lost your privacy a long time ago.

Terrorist organizations laugh at us arguing over this.

Googles phones are just as encrypted, This is different than knowing your internet history or having your "free email address" scanned to give you targeted ads.

Google has joined Apple if you didnt know :
http://recode.net/2016/02/25/google-...g-in-fbi-case/

"Google plans to follow Microsoft in throwing its legal support behind Apple in its increasingly contentious dispute with the federal government around the iPhone connected with the San Bernardino terror attacks, according to sources.

Google, which controls Android, the world’s most popular mobile operating system, was the first tech company to publicly voice support for Apple when the case broke last week. CEO Sundar Pichai said the government demands set a “troubling precedent.”

The rest of the tech community is rallying behind Apple, too. Both Twitter and Facebook are also expected to throw their legal support behind Apple next week, according to sources.
If Apple and Android were forced to have backdoors it would just jeopardize the safety of everyday citizens and the criminals would move to another form of encryption.

[eluded]

There isn't anything on his phone. This could set a dangerous precedent. The government is asking the company to create something. This isn't something Apple has lying around that they can easily unlock the phone with. They actually have to create something. Why doesn't the government force all the car manufacturers to develop a higher mileage for the sake of national security?

[trey100]

Originally Posted by OptionlessM

Would you be willing to disclose your age? I am curious, because it's pretty rare for me to get a chance to interact with someone who shares views like that regarding privacy and government intrusion.

43

[trey100]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Googles phones are just as encrypted, This is different than knowing your internet history or having your "free email address" scanned to give you targeted ads.

Google has joined Apple if you didnt know :
http://recode.net/2016/02/25/google-...g-in-fbi-case/

"Google plans to follow Microsoft in throwing its legal support behind Apple in its increasingly contentious dispute with the federal government around the iPhone connected with the San Bernardino terror attacks, according to sources.

Google, which controls Android, the world’s most popular mobile operating system, was the first tech company to publicly voice support for Apple when the case broke last week. CEO Sundar Pichai said the government demands set a “troubling precedent.”

The rest of the tech community is rallying behind Apple, too. Both Twitter and Facebook are also expected to throw their legal support behind Apple next week, according to sources.
If Apple and Android were forced to have backdoors it would just jeopardize the safety of everyday citizens and the criminals would move to another form of encryption.

Wait - do you think that Google and Apple don't know what's on your phone?

I happen to know someone who works at one of these large firms and I was shocked at how far they are taking knowing things about you. They are constantly testing how far they can take things before people start to feel uncomfortable. Basically slowly doing things so that people ultimately accept it as normal.

You believe that firms doing all of the above solely for money all of a sudden have a conscience? Sorry. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but putting Apple on some kind of pedestal as the savior of human rights is comical.

[cays]

Originally Posted by trey100

People siding with Apple because of a worry about the government will spy on you - what are you people doing that is so bad? And why is it ok for Google to make billions over spying on you constantly but looking at a terrorist's phone is so bad?

Based on your quote I'd guess you probably vehemently disagree with what Glenn Greenwald has to say in general. I don't though.

Greenwald went on to lambaste journalists, politicians and business leaders who have said that digital privacy is unnecessary. He criticized Google chairman Eric Schmidt for saying on CNBC in 2008 that "if you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." Greenwald argued that it's detrimental to assume that someone who wants privacy -- say a person calling an HIV clinic or suicide hotline -- should be treated with suspicion.

“There are all kinds of things we want to hide from other people -- that we tell our psychiatrist, our lawyer, our doctor, our spouse or a stranger on the Internet -- that have nothing to do with criminality,” he said.

Greenwald also took on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) for her 2013 op-ed in USA Today, in which she said that collecting call records doesn't count as surveillance if the actual conversations aren't recorded. At the time, some people responded online by calling for her to publish a list of people whom she spoke to every day. “Of course, she would never do that,” Greenwald said.

He also scorched MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell, The Washington Post’s Ruth Marcus and The New Yorker’s Hendrik Hertzberg, who all said last year that they don’t feel threatened by the NSA’s surveillance.

“If you look at those people, they all have something in common. They wake up every day and defend the people with the most power," he said. "Of course they’re not threatened. They’re right -- they probably don’t have anything to worry about."

And to get a little esoteric, this from the Atlantic which I agree with also.

Privacy is not just something we enjoy. It is something that is necessary for us to: develop who we are; form an identity that is not dictated by the social conditions that directly or indirectly influence our thinking, decisions, and behaviors; and decide what type of society we want to live in. Whether we like it or not constant data collection about everything we do -- like the kind conducted by Facebook and an increasing number of other companies -- shapes and produces our actions. We are different people when under surveillance than we are when enjoying some privacy. And Cohen's argument illuminates how the breathing room provided by privacy is essential to being a complete, fulfilled person.

[RedlinePSI]

Originally Posted by trey100

People siding with Apple because of a worry about the government will spy on you - what are you people doing that is so bad? And why is it ok for Google to make billions over spying on you constantly but looking at a terrorist's phone is so bad?

Hardware is being developed that is going to track every single thing we do. TVs, refrigerators, etc. You lost your privacy a long time ago.

Terrorist organizations laugh at us arguing over this.

You are completely missing the point. Think harder about this!

[trey100]

Originally Posted by cays

Based on your quote I'd guess you probably vehemently disagree with what Glenn Greenwald has to say in general. I don't though.

Greenwald went on to lambaste journalists, politicians and business leaders who have said that digital privacy is unnecessary. He criticized Google chairman Eric Schmidt for saying on CNBC in 2008 that "if you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." Greenwald argued that it's detrimental to assume that someone who wants privacy -- say a person calling an HIV clinic or suicide hotline -- should be treated with suspicion.

“There are all kinds of things we want to hide from other people -- that we tell our psychiatrist, our lawyer, our doctor, our spouse or a stranger on the Internet -- that have nothing to do with criminality,” he said.

Greenwald also took on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) for her 2013 op-ed in USA Today, in which she said that collecting call records doesn't count as surveillance if the actual conversations aren't recorded. At the time, some people responded online by calling for her to publish a list of people whom she spoke to every day. “Of course, she would never do that,” Greenwald said.

He also scorched MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell, The Washington Post’s Ruth Marcus and The New Yorker’s Hendrik Hertzberg, who all said last year that they don’t feel threatened by the NSA’s surveillance.

“If you look at those people, they all have something in common. They wake up every day and defend the people with the most power," he said. "Of course they’re not threatened. They’re right -- they probably don’t have anything to worry about."

Oh please don't get me wrong. I'm a proponent of defending the privacy of every law abiding American citizen.

My points are these:

1. Regardless of how much privacy I want, companies just like Apple and Google are stealing my information every single day. Companies are creating products that will track every single thing we do in our lives all to make themselves rich. This is not an exaggeration. So the idea that we live private lives is not true. Sure they don't say they are stealing your private information - they twist it into something that seems less harmful.

2. This man is a terrorist. At that moment, as far as I am concerned, he lost any rights of privacy. So knowing number 1 above, and even without it, there is no real reason to prevent the government from looking into his phone. The government, unlike Apple and Google, have nothing to gain from peeking in to the phone. They are simply trying to see what leads they might be able to get if any. Yet we fight back at the government but allow these other companies to steal our privacy every day no questions asked.

By the way - thank you for the Google chairman quote from 2008. This makes the whole argument even more hypocritical. They are on record saying you shouldn't have privacy and now they swoop in as some saviors of privacy?

[trey100]

Originally Posted by RedlinePSI

You are completely missing the point. Think harder about this!

I'm really not but I will continue to think about it and reassess like I do most things. I implore you to do the same.

[RedlinePSI]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

^^^ Spot on the level of computer education here is frightening.. You people are so naive...

No idea how Encryption works, Take Apple out of the Conversation.... If the FBI gets its wish apply the back door to every operating system at will.

• Apple ( IOS / OSX )
• Microsoft ( Windows Phone / Windows 10 )
• Google ( Android / Chrome OS )

And the list goes on, It will spread to every device they get hung up on... They will want into the next un-breakable device for the next case and the next case... Where will it stop? Taking encryption from the good guys doesnt stop the bad guys.... Tons of third party encryption software packages exist. I use my phone for contact-less payment, Have sensitive emails, Health records, location data etc.. You think I would be confident having that on there with a backdoor? No im ok with it because the device is rock solid secure.

EXACTLY. This is how badly a move like this can affect the whole industry and the world we live in as we move into the future. Some of you people just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that if a back door is built in, it is almost a guarantee that it will be exploited for nefarious purposes. Somebody will break in, Apple and/or Microsoft will make a patch, someone else will break in, another patch...and so on. Mobile devices will no longer be trusted to handle sensitive data. At least for people with half a brain. Say goodbye to tons of cool tech we could have had.

[cays]

Originally Posted by trey100

By the way - thank you from the Google chairman quote from 2008. This makes the whole argument even more hypocritical. They are on record saying you shouldn't have privacy and now they swoop in as some saviors of privacy?

Eric Schmidt is a ****, no doubt about it.

[ny325]

I believe if you have nothing to hide, why worry.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by RedlinePSI

EXACTLY. This is how badly a move like this can affect the whole industry and the world we live in as we move into the future. Some of you people just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that if a back door is built in, it is almost a guarantee that it will be exploited for nefarious purposes. Somebody will break in, Apple and/or Microsoft will make a patch, someone else will break in, another patch...and so on. Mobile devices will no longer be trusted to handle sensitive data. At least for people with half a brain. Say goodbye to tons of cool tech we could have had.

I'm curious - are you saying that only Apple and Google should know what is on my phone or do you believe they themselves do not know what is on your phone?

Serious question.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by ny325

I believe if you have nothing to hide, why worry.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you...

[RedlinePSI]

Originally Posted by trey100

I'm curious - are you saying that only Apple and Google should know what is on my phone or do you believe they themselves do not know what is on your phone?

Serious question.

I'm going to respond with a question if I may, seriously. Are you saying that Google/Apple collects sensitive information without the end user having agreed to a terms of use, and willingly forefitting permissions to certain parts of their device? That includes everything from social security numbers to credit card numbers, to a naked pic.

[ny325]

I guess not. If I'm not mistaking, can your Apple iPhone be tracked by law enforcement? Isn't there a " Track my phone app?" Our privacy is already being monitored. The moment you log on to the internet, go on social media, and send a text. Your information is already out. I lost a friend in the 911 attacks.
So anything that would prevent another tragic attack to this country, or another I'm on board with.

[ny325]

Apple is worrying about its image before the safety of our country. God forbid another attacks takes place, and somehow information leads back to those two savages. Then what is everyone going to say? Let me guess, " You see, I told you so." Guess what, it's too late.

[Sidewinderpb]

Originally Posted by ny325

I guess not. If I'm not mistaking, can your Apple iPhone be tracked by law enforcement? Isn't there a " Track my phone app?" Our privacy is already being monitored. The moment you log on to the internet, go on social media, and send a text. Your information is already out. I lost a friend in the 911 attacks.
So anything that would prevent another tragic attack to his country, or another I'm on board with.

I, too, lost someone that day. However, I don't allow that to cloud my judgement. Our government is supposed to be run by the people, for the people. Having the government control and monitor everything we do works against that principle. Allowing this to happen is simply enabling and validating their pursuit of power. Give a guy a rope, wanna be a cowboy.

[ny325]

I agree. However, isn't the FBI only asking to unlock the phones of the two savages? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by ny325

I agree. However, isn't the FBI only asking to unlock the phones of the two savages? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly, Plus this isnt gonna stop.. Next time it happens they will want it done again and again and again.. And this will apply to all phones iPhone / Android etc..