Bob Lutz chimes in on the Automotive Enthusiasts vs. BMW debate

[BMW Gator]

[QUOTE=Obioban;20325493]I completely agree with Lutz here. In 2001, I wanted every product in BMW lineup. Today, they don't make a single thing I desire to own in the slightest. My last 7 cars were M cars, multiple of which were purchased new. Everything that brought me to the brand originally is thoroughly and completely dead and gone.



Yeah, when he was a driving force in the formation of the M division, or when he helped create the 3 series, or the Viper, or any of a multitude of the best cars of the last 40 years... stodgy and unimaginative.

Totally Agree - from a former Viper owner and current 1M owner- Lutz is the real deal.
The only car in BMW's lineup that appeals to me is the M2 and I could buy any of their cars including the GTS. ///M=Marketing

[tetsuo111]

[QUOTE=BMW Gator;20334957]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I completely agree with Lutz here. In 2001, I wanted every product in BMW lineup. Today, they don't make a single thing I desire to own in the slightest. My last 7 cars were M cars, multiple of which were purchased new. Everything that brought me to the brand originally is thoroughly and completely dead and gone.



Yeah, when he was a driving force in the formation of the M division, or when he helped create the 3 series, or the Viper, or any of a multitude of the best cars of the last 40 years... stodgy and unimaginative.

Totally Agree - from a former Viper owner and current 1M owner- Lutz is the real deal.
The only car in BMW's lineup that appeals to me is the M2 and I could buy any of their cars including the GTS. ///M=Marketing

I was a BMW fan when it's market demographic was buyers considering Porsche, but who needed the practicality of more room and four doors. There were no alternatives save BMW to Porsche available for sale back then. I ended up buying the Porsche, but many of my friends owned the 2002tii and early 3-ers, and M cars.

Those BMWs, which Lutz was influential in bringing to market, were sports cars with an extra seat, had agile handling, were quick without being brutally fast, well-built, elegant and athletic in appearance, and were NOT purchased for social status because you only knew about BMW if you were a car guy or lady.

Porsche seems to have evolved with the times, rising to the challenge of a changing market, technology, and regulatory climate. Porsche still engineers some of the most respected sports cars on the planet. BMW? Sort of luxury, sort of faux sporty, sort of... what?

[sygazelle]

[QUOTE=tetsuo111;20335945]

Originally Posted by BMW Gator

Porsche seems to have evolved with the times, rising to the challenge of a changing market, technology, and regulatory climate. Porsche still engineers some of the most respected sports cars on the planet. BMW? Sort of luxury, sort of faux sporty, sort of... what?

Porsche builds and markets fine cars. So does BMW. Porsche has chosen to be a niche, high-end, high-performance player with price points to match. BMW has chosen to become a high volume player of nice cars for a different market.

These two companies simply evolved in a different direction. If you are going to blame BMW for not being the company they used to be, you should complain that they are building cars at all. After all, they build airplane engines and motorcycles.

Porsche gets it's kilo of flesh from the high volume market through its ownership position in VW Group. Porsche has chosen to keep the brand focused on sports vehicles. BMW does not have several brands under its umbrella through which to sell lower price point, lower performance, higher volume vehicles.

If BMW wanted to create an ultra performance brand with Porsche price points, I'm guessing they could do it and their cars would sell. They've chosen not to do that. They just sell boatloads (literally) of really nice cars that do really well in the market in which they have chosen to play.

Those who don't like the current BMW products have a lot of choices. They can keep their older previous gen cars until the wheels fall off or they can go buy something else. Don't wait for BMW to come to its senses. They know exactly what they are doing.

[tetsuo111]

[QUOTE=sygazelle]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Porsche builds and markets fine cars. So does BMW. Porsche has chosen to be a niche, high-end, high-performance player with price points to match. BMW has chosen to become a high volume player of nice cars for a different market.

These two companies simply evolved in a different direction. If you are going to blame BMW for not being the company they used to be, you should complain that they are building cars at all. After all, they build airplane engines and motorcycles.

Porsche gets it's kilo of flesh from the high volume market through its ownership position in VW Group. Porsche has chosen to keep the brand focused on sports vehicles. BMW does not have several brands under its umbrella through which to sell lower price point, lower performance, higher volume vehicles.

If BMW wanted to create an ultra performance brand with Porsche price points, I'm guessing they could do it and their cars would sell. They've chosen not to do that. They just sell boatloads (literally) of really nice cars that do really well in the market in which they have chosen to play.

Those who don't like the current BMW products have a lot of choices. They can keep their older previous gen cars until the wheels fall off or they can go buy something else. Don't wait for BMW to come to its senses. They know exactly what they are doing.

It sounds like we both agree with Lutz.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

...

Those BMWs, which Lutz was influential in bringing to market, were sports cars with an extra seat, had agile handling, were quick without being brutally fast, well-built, elegant and athletic in appearance, and were NOT purchased for social status because you only knew about BMW if you were a car guy or lady.

Porsche seems to have evolved with the times, rising to the challenge of a changing market, technology, and regulatory climate. Porsche still engineers some of the most respected sports cars on the planet. BMW? Sort of luxury, sort of faux sporty, sort of... what?

Couple of comments...

1. BMW still builds cars like you describe... agile, athletic, etc. I can name several.

2. If you think the majority of Porsche buyers aren't buying for the badge status then you are nuts Porsche is also now building 4 cylinder turbos which are not getting universal praise like previous generation cars. They are buildings SUV's... yes, nice ones but that is clearly a move to the mass market. Porsche isn't perfect either. The still build some amazing cars (and arguably the widest range of awesomeness) and they also charge a huge premium for those cars which is why they can do it... partly because some enthusiasts who value the experience are willing to pay the price but largely to affluent buyers (doctors, lawyers, business owners, etc) who just love the idea of owning a Porsche. Social status buying at its best. Talk to a Porsche dealer who is honest and they will tell you the SUV's elevated the company because they became the volume purchase and allowed the company to achieve better economies of scale. Porsche will evolve more and more into the mass market too over time...

[John_01]

I think Bob was at least 5 years late in pointing this out.
IMO, this simply isn't news.

I think that as BMW becomes more mainstream, it will be hard for them to demand a price premium that they have in the past.
That's how I feel about replacing my 2x BMWs. Its not clear to me that the BMW offers the most attractive products anymore.