Still want an EV? (NO POLITICS)

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Piper1

For those that do own EVs on this thread and charge from home, I’ve wondered what’s the comparison on the home electric bill of pre ev to owning one? Just one thing that I’ve always wondered.

I have solar that I installed a month before I took delivery of my EV so I currently don't pay an electric bill, but I can calculate it out.

Basically...at 11 cents per kwh, I can fill an empty charge for around 9 bucks.

I generally drive 20-30 miles a day so that ends up around 10 kwh per day, or around a buck a day.

So, roughly 30 to 50 dollars a month (upper end) for fuel costs.

Comparatively, I would be spending ~200 a month on gasoline.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Being devils advocate here. Ask a blind person if they think a quiet car is a good idea. There’s a gentleman few miles from us I saw walking through a cross walk into a Tesla hitting it with his stick as he walked. Tesla was into the cross walk stopped at a red light so clearly not where it should be.
My uncle had a sticker on his helmet “loud pipes save lives” after a car hit him while he was stopped in a turn lane on a red light. There’s sometimes nothing that will help someone not paying attention but if the blind man could hear the car think it would’ve been different?

It has sound generators (mandated) so they are quiet in the cabin...externally you can hear them coming.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm going to preface my comments that I was (really my father was) an early adoptor of the electric garden tractor in 1972. You can Google on "GE Electrak" to save me the time describing it. But in short, the machine was 50 years ahead of its time and no manufacturer has yet come to market with an equivalent. So I'm quite familiar with EV. On the automotive side, I've driven the Chevy Bolt, Chevy Volt, and have passenger time in both the Model 3 and Model Y. And I actually own an Electric golfcart, Clubcar.

So neat, some EVs are fast. 3.2 seconds to 60 MPH. Big deal, in real world operational terms what does that get you? Regular Model 3, the one for $40K, it's a 5 second car, okay still faster than most ICE, but it's mostly gearing on the ICE side; engineers see mid 5-seconds to mid 6-seconds cars as good enough for street use. I see these claims to EV 0 - 60 times akin to the Japanese sportbike market of the late 1980's thru mid 1990's. I had one of those sportbikes, yup it was fun to launch it every once in awhile, but it gets old in short order, because no one else is as fast and really no one else cares.

The Model 3 at cruising speed is louder than my well worn 2006 E90. The Model Y is about the same. The Model 3 chassis lacks good isolation engineering. Yup, sure is neat to get pushed back in the seat in near silence, at the flat torque curve saves the need to shift gears, but again it gets old. Race a few cars a few times off a light and you beat them every time, WOW! Then what do you do next? And it took a lot of skill... mash the pedal and let the computer lay down the torque. Try it on a sport bike, THAT takes skill, and keeps it interesting because attaining that speed takes skill, experience, and effort. That's why drag racing ICE is fun, because it's a personal challenge everytime.

While you like the fact you can charge at home in 5 seconds (not really), ICE people don't need to charge at home because they can recharge 400 miles of range in 5 minutes, practically anywhere any time they want. You can make all the arguments against the gas station all you want, but people simply find it convenient. Waiting for 20 minutes to recover 120 miles of range they see as inconvenient.

A smile on my face EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I drive it.

Your mileage may vary but I'm not sure who wouldn't absolutely LOVE driving this thing every day. All my buddies that were staunch EV haters that have test drove my car have, afterwards, said they get it.

But I get why you might get bored of the Tesla. I wouldn't want to look at it every day.

This however? Me gusta.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by neilum

There should be an FAQ on all car forums about EV's

- First thing that could eliminate 90% of noise about EV's is if you can't charge the car at home or where you live it's probably a bad idea. Start there, almost a hard stop. The massive advantage over gas cars is I have a full charge everyday for 5 seconds of my time (plugging it in at night)


- If you live in the cold or far North and drive a lot it's probably a bad idea. For example, I have driven home from Albany NY to North Jersey where I live and went from 68% charge to 5%, it was 140 miles straight and it was very cold that night, 5 degrees outside. Cold Weather absolutely crushes the Lithium Ion battery. I barely made it. I almost had to stop, and I could have but its way inconvenient in this scenario.


- Any commercial or large vehicle application (towing/landscape/work truck/trailer/3rd row SUV) etc is also a horrible idea or not possible with an EV. Another very hard to argue point

- After owning a Model Y for 9 months gas cars feel extremely slow and clunky. Funny to hear people call EV's golf carts. I would call whatever you are driving as your daily, a true golf cart, literally. EV's are insanely quick and responsive. It is way more of a spaceship than a "golf cart", because that is a horrible analogy.

If you're criteria doesnt match the above cons, an EV feels superior in every way. I thought I would miss the feel and engagement of a gas car myself, but after owning this Tesla for 9 months dealing with a slow noisy ICE car is truly annoying. Most cars are extremely slow and loud in comparison, I hope people appreciate how responsive and QUIET and torquey an EV is. Under appreciated point here how peaceful having dead silence is or not having an engine/transmission thrashing around going nowhere. Most sporty ICE cars in comparison are very slow and would get destroyed by a base level Model Y (380 HP). There is less engagement but what you gain is massive instant power that does not get old.

Nothing is perfect but it is clearly the future for most people. Gas cars will be around until we are old and gray because certain applications gas/diesel will always be a better tool for the job...

I can definitely see EV good for every day tasks as it covers any normal amount of driving. But I drive longer road trips and it becomes very inconvenient. On 500 mile trips that I take from SF to LA every few months, a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor or Performance needs to charge twice. That is because the 300 mile range is more like 200 miles at normal highway speeds (75mph+). Then you need to stop at superchargers which are usually crowded and may have to wait in line with the other Teslas waiting to charge. This easily adds 2-3 hours to what is a 6 hour drive for a normal gas car. I don't even need to stop for fuel in my normal car.

Then there is the problem of going to the track. I enjoy driving my car at the track - taking the car to the limit in safe environment. A Tesla Model 3 can only do 1-2 lap before it overheats and goes into limp mode. Then it also drains 80-90% of the battery in 20 minutes of track time. That means you need to supercharge 5-6 times a day on a normal track day. My friends who bring their Tesla to the track usually don't do it again because its not practical and is no fun. They spend all day driving to and from superchargers only to do 2 flying lap and then limp into the pits.

So it comes down to this. I need 3 cars if I have an EV. The EV for every day, a long distance car and a fun car. All those can be 1 car for a gas powered sports car.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by Piper1

For those that do own EVs on this thread and charge from home, I’ve wondered what’s the comparison on the home electric bill of pre ev to owning one? Just one thing that I’ve always wondered.

Cheap compared to gasoline. For reference, we owned a Chevy Bolt which had a 66 kW battery, and let's say it was completely dead. If we assume a 70% efficiency rate for charging (this is probably super low), it would take 94.28 kilowatts of energy to charge it from 0% to 100%. The national average for power is $0.13 per kW, which puts the grand total at $12.25. So for $12 and some change, you could go 200-240 miles.

Also, power at night is cheaper than during peak times, so I actually set a schedule so the car would only charge from like 11pm-8am. We also just used the standard charger (level 1) that came with the car, never bothered getting a level 2. We never ran ours out of charge either, typically never below 50% actually. Just plugged it in when we got home, and unplugged it when it was full. Our power bill each month was ~$15-25 higher than usual. Wife and I also both work from home, so we didn't drive much anyways, hence why we sold it.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

I'll gladly own an EV as long as I can keep an ICE car on the side (for reasons mentioned above by neilum). But do we know the durability of these batteries? Like in 4-5 years or once we reach 100k miles will they still perform adequately? And how much would it cost to replace these batteries if we needed to? If it's a significant amount that could have a negative impact on EV resale values and maintenance.

I'm not sure, but there are plenty of Teslas in that age and mileage range and I'm sure many have documented it. Also I think the manufacturer warranty on the batteries can be quite telling. I believe Tesla claims like 70% of rated range for like 8 years or so (could be wrong you can look it up). I'm not a good example as I change cars all the time, but on average how long do people own cars for?

Originally Posted by Piper1

For those that do own EVs on this thread and charge from home, I’ve wondered what’s the comparison on the home electric bill of pre ev to owning one? Just one thing that I’ve always wondered.

I did not notice a change when I had my model 3 but I don't track my electric usage very closely and we go back and forth from here and NC so it can vary by a lot. However it's pretty easy to figure out. The model 3 I believe had a 75 kwh battery. In FL where I had it I pay at most $0.7 kwh so a full charge from empty would cost $5.25. Considering how little we drive and the fact we have other vehicles also I can imagine it had any significant impact on the bill.

[Murf the Surf]

I've posted articles from this guy before, he's an electrical engineer by trade and an automotive writer for decades. He often writes about the pro's and con's of EV's etc and often debunks the pro and con stories about them. This is an interesting article reporting on European Testing of EV's vs ICE and the actual GHG savings over lifecycle.

Motor Mouth: European safety agency says EVs not as green as promised
New Green NCAP environmental ratings challenge electric vehicles’ CO2-reducing bona fides, and put ICEs not far behind them:

https://driving.ca/column/motor-mout...en-as-promised

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Race a few cars a few times off a light and you beat them every time, WOW! Then what do you do next? And it took a lot of skill... mash the pedal and let the computer lay down the torque. Try it on a sport bike, THAT takes skill, and keeps it interesting because attaining that speed takes skill, experience, and effort. That's why drag racing ICE is fun, because it's a personal challenge everytime.

Personally, i don't find drag racing fun, but I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone that enjoys it, however, there are a few local Tesla Model 3 owners in my area that are regulars at the road courses, and they put up very good times, and they look like they are having a lot of fun.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

While you like the fact you can charge at home in 5 seconds (not really), ICE people don't need to charge at home because they can recharge 400 miles of range in 5 minutes, practically anywhere any time they want. You can make all the arguments against the gas station all you want, but people simply find it convenient. Waiting for 20 minutes to recover 120 miles of range they see as inconvenient.

I went to the charging station ONCE in my 2019 i3. Just once in 3 years. To me, it was actually more convenient than an ICE because I never had to go to the gas station. I understand that not everyone will share this experience, but you also stated that "Waiting for 20 minutes to recover 120 miles of range they see as inconvenient.". Well, I've never experienced that either. The problem is that you're trying to fit the EV paradigm into an ICE paradigm. These are different tools for different tasks.

Also " ICE people don't need to charge at home because they can recharge 400 miles of range in 5 minutes, practically anywhere any time they want." They can't gas up at home, so that's really not anywhere and anytime they want. I'm being nit-picky, I know, but to be fair, so are you. I don't need 400 miles of range, and I don't need to refuel 400 miles from home because that's not what I used my EV for. I had an 80 mile commute, it was perfect for that, and it did the job better than an ICE.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Being devils advocate here. Ask a blind person if they think a quiet car is a good idea.

Be sure to ask the blind person if pedestrian detection and emergency intervention that prevents a driver from hitting them is a good idea too. These aren't inherently EV features, but EVs tend to showcase the highest autonomous driving tech and safety features like this. In any case, I'm sure the blind person would want these features standard on all cars...

[RM7]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I'm not sure, but there are plenty of Teslas in that age and mileage range and I'm sure many have documented it. Also I think the manufacturer warranty on the batteries can be quite telling. I believe Tesla claims like 70% of rated range for like 8 years or so (could be wrong you can look it up). I'm not a good example as I change cars all the time, but on average how long do people own cars for?

I remember when the Prius came out. People were LOSING THEIR MINDS about the battery crapping out in a few thousand miles and the cars not being serviceable. I mean, not any valid concerns, just the people that are terrified of something new.

[PittsDriver]

I've read recently that due to the rapid evolution of EV vehicles that the anticipated depreciation is much more rapid on them. I guess one way to test that statement would be to ask those that are leasing what the residual value is at the end of their lease? Lower than would be expected for a similar ICE vehicle?

If the depreciation/resale/trade value falls more quickly on these vehicles, I wonder if that wipes out any tax incentive for buying them?

I'm really not at all a fan of the appearance of Teslas. Around Annapolis they seem to be about every 5th car on the road - everyone seems to have one. Meh, plain looking like it could easily be a cheap economy model from a pedestrian brand - but can cost over $100K!

A friend was recently asking me if I thought Rivian was a good company to invest some money in. My thought is with how rapidly the major players (BMW, Mercedes, other big domestic brands) are rolling out really nice EVs that are being well accepted that Rivian and Lucid have missed the market and Tesla is about to finally have their market tested for real.

[chassis]

EV is forecast to be 50% of new vehicle builds in North America by 2029. 10% is in no one’s minds.

Follow the money - investments are being made in product (batteries) and infrastructure (charging). The body, chassis and drivetrain aspects of EVs are solved and are trivial compared to batteries and infrastructure.

I will be pumping petrojuice until it is no longer available. Electrification is coming, however.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by jmg

Personally, i don't find drag racing fun, but I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone that enjoys it, however, there are a few local Tesla Model 3 owners in my area that are regulars at the road courses, and they put up very good times, and they look like they are having a lot of fun.

I went to the charging station ONCE in my 2019 i3. Just once in 3 years. To me, it was actually more convenient than an ICE because I never had to go to the gas station. I understand that not everyone will share this experience, but you also stated that "Waiting for 20 minutes to recover 120 miles of range they see as inconvenient.". Well, I've never experienced that either. The problem is that you're trying to fit the EV paradigm into an ICE paradigm. These are different tools for different tasks.

Also " ICE people don't need to charge at home because they can recharge 400 miles of range in 5 minutes, practically anywhere any time they want." They can't gas up at home, so that's really not anywhere and anytime they want. I'm being nit-picky, I know, but to be fair, so are you. I don't need 400 miles of range, and I don't need to refuel 400 miles from home because that's not what I used my EV for. I had an 80 mile commute, it was perfect for that, and it did the job better than an ICE.

I'm experiencing this since selling the model 3 (waiting on new one hopefully end of this month or next). After owning it I have found out I really dislike going to the gas station. Maybe it's only 5 min or whatever, but it's always out of gas at an inconvenient time. I use to be the type that if I'm at a 1/4 tank I need to put has NAOW!!!! However right now the cayenne is running on fumes, my moms car (shes staying with us) also only has a couple miles to go. The only car with gas is the mustang, so I'm considering taking that instead of putting gas in the other 2.

Originally Posted by RM7

I remember when the Prius came out. People were LOSING THEIR MINDS about the battery crapping out in a few thousand miles and the cars not being serviceable. I mean, not any valid concerns, just the people that are terrified of something new.

Most unreliable pos I've owned was my 335. Yet my 2006 BMW Z4MR was pretty bullet proof during the 5 or 6 years I owned it. I only owned the model 3 for a year and a half or so but it was a 2018 and I had no issues other than the 12v battery go out, which would have been a very easy swap, but it was still covered under warranty so I let Tesla deal with it. They came to my house and swapped it on the spot. I'm betting most of the people super concerned about battery life wouldn't own a BMW out of warranty anyways.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

One has to question who though is ultimately driving the market, the consumer or politicians.

It doesn't matter because it's nothing new.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Perhaps, but then one can't make a judgement as to if EV is actually better than ICE if the market is artificially manipulated.

They are tied together. The market needs to be manipulated/regulated to allow for something to be adopted to become more practical. It's the same way oil is subsidized.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by PittsDriver

I've read recently that due to the rapid evolution of EV vehicles that the anticipated depreciation is much more rapid on them. I guess one way to test that statement would be to ask those that are leasing what the residual value is at the end of their lease? Lower than would be expected for a similar ICE vehicle?

If the depreciation/resale/trade value falls more quickly on these vehicles, I wonder if that wipes out any tax incentive for buying them?

I'm really not at all a fan of the appearance of Teslas. Around Annapolis they seem to be about every 5th car on the road - everyone seems to have one. Meh, plain looking like it could easily be a cheap economy model from a pedestrian brand - but can cost over $100K!

A friend was recently asking me if I thought Rivian was a good company to invest some money in. My thought is with how rapidly the major players (BMW, Mercedes, other big domestic brands) are rolling out really nice EVs that are being well accepted that Rivian and Lucid have missed the market and Tesla is about to finally have their market tested for real.

Ii bought RIVN the day it went public and now I'm down 74% lol. A lot of things lined up, in a bad way, for Rivian. Losing the exclusivity with Amazon, Ford pulling out, MSRP increase even for pre-orders. They make a great truck that's been crippled by everything except the truck itself. I'm holding. If you think they can climb out of this one, but because it's on sale. Personally, for the amount or risk, it's worth getting in right now. It can only really go up.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

One has to question who though is ultimately driving the market, the consumer or politicians.

Carmakers make more profit per EV than they do with ICE, because of far less assembly labor content in the assembled vehicle. Battery cost is the biggest hurdle for the carmakers to overcome and battery range and recharge speed are the hurdles for consumer acceptance. Investment to produce engines and transmissions is less than the steady state investment for batteries and electric motors. Initial investment during the transition period (decade) will be very high. Electric motors are pretty low investment compared with most other things.

With EV it’s far easier to implement vehicle subscription services. Want more horsepower? Pay for the subscription. Want a different horn tone? Pay for the subscription. This subscription model lines the pockets of carmakers, above and beyond the profit gained from less assembly plant labor.

Charging infrastructure is a red herring and is meaningless. The profit motive of carmakers and regulatory actions by governments mean whatever infrastructure is needed will be in place.

The government doesn’t really care where the ball bounces. Tax revenue opportunities abound at every step of the journey.

It’s not about the environment. It’s about carmaker profits.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by Piper1

For those that do own EVs on this thread and charge from home, I’ve wondered what’s the comparison on the home electric bill of pre ev to owning one? Just one thing that I’ve always wondered.

The delta is a function of the cost of electricity and usage. I have not noticed a material difference in my electric bill pre and post EV because the cost of electricity is low in GA relative to most states. I pay $0.05 per kWh and have a 82 kWh battery pack capacity in my EV. It costs me about $3.85 per full charge and that gets me about 270 miles. I drive 800-1,000 miles per month so the cost is $11-14 per month.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chassis

Carmakers make more profit per EV than they do with ICE, because of far less assembly labor content in the assembled vehicle. Battery cost is the biggest hurdle for the carmakers to overcome and battery range and recharge speed are the hurdles for consumer acceptance. Investment to produce engines and transmissions is less than the steady state investment for batteries and electric motors. Initial investment during the transition period (decade) will be very high. Electric motors are pretty low investment compared with most other things.

With EV it's far easier to implement vehicle subscription services. Want more horsepower? Pay for the subscription. Want a different horn tone? Pay for the subscription. This subscription model lines the pockets of carmakers, above and beyond the profit gained from less assembly plant labor.

Charging infrastructure is a red herring and is meaningless. The profit motive of carmakers and regulatory actions by governments mean whatever infrastructure is needed will be in place.

The government doesn't really care where the ball bounces. Tax revenue opportunities abound at every step of the journey.

It's not about the environment. It's about carmaker profits.

Shout this from the rooftops

[mikado463]

Originally Posted by chassis

Carmakers make more profit per EV than they do with ICE, because of far less assembly labor content in the assembled vehicle. Battery cost is the biggest hurdle for the carmakers to overcome and battery range and recharge speed are the hurdles for consumer acceptance. Investment to produce engines and transmissions is less than the steady state investment for batteries and electric motors. Initial investment during the transition period (decade) will be very high. Electric motors are pretty low investment compared with most other things.

With EV it’s far easier to implement vehicle subscription services. Want more horsepower? Pay for the subscription. Want a different horn tone? Pay for the subscription. This subscription model lines the pockets of carmakers, above and beyond the profit gained from less assembly plant labor.

Charging infrastructure is a red herring and is meaningless. The profit motive of carmakers and regulatory actions by governments mean whatever infrastructure is needed will be in place.

The government doesn’t really care where the ball bounces. Tax revenue opportunities abound at every step of the journey.

It’s not about the environment. It’s about carmaker profits.

speaking of 'tax', I can't wait to see the formulas the Feds/States come up with to offset the per gal tax on road fuel

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by PittsDriver

I've read recently that due to the rapid evolution of EV vehicles that the anticipated depreciation is much more rapid on them. I guess one way to test that statement would be to ask those that are leasing what the residual value is at the end of their lease? Lower than would be expected for a similar ICE vehicle?

If the depreciation/resale/trade value falls more quickly on these vehicles, I wonder if that wipes out any tax incentive for buying them?

I'm really not at all a fan of the appearance of Teslas. Around Annapolis they seem to be about every 5th car on the road - everyone seems to have one. Meh, plain looking like it could easily be a cheap economy model from a pedestrian brand - but can cost over $100K!

A friend was recently asking me if I thought Rivian was a good company to invest some money in. My thought is with how rapidly the major players (BMW, Mercedes, other big domestic brands) are rolling out really nice EVs that are being well accepted that Rivian and Lucid have missed the market and Tesla is about to finally have their market tested for real.

You might assume so but I suspect initial R&D will result in a longer period of time between refreshes. There is so much demand for the EVs that are being produced, they are asking insane market adjustments and selling almost every vehicle before it even hits the lot.

Right now very few people are leasing an EV because the tax credit requires you purchase the vehicle. You lose the 7500 if you lease. Ford addressed this with a hybrid program called "options" which gives you a customized lease like loan, financing a portion of the vehicle based on residual. My residual was still in the high 40s as I recall but right now, 8 months after purchase, I could trade in my GT for more than I paid for it and supply isn't going to get better on these within the next year at least, I'm sure.

At the end of my 3 year "options" plan, I suspect the car will still be worth nearly what I paid...if not more.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I disagree.

Disagree with what? That they exist at all or that they need to exist?

Well, the fact is they exist, there's nothing to debate or disagree with there. Oil Subsidies are government measures to control the price and supply of oil. The economy benefits from them because it is so dependent on oil prices that it has to be controlled to stabilize the economy and keep the supply flowing.


If you are arguing for the market to naturally determine adaptation, that's simply not possible. Oil is already artificially supported by subsidies. It's already got an unfair advantage. The EV needs the same type of support to even stand a chance.