Next Generation Toyota 86

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Again, they would essentially be two different vehicles for all the changes that would be needed. There just isn't a business case for it.

I also disagree. Adding a turbo to a 4 cyl means 20ish extra part numbers in the BOM. Plus the aftermarket already proved there was plenty of room under the hood of the old car to accommodate either a supercharged or turbo FI system, and that was one of the most popular mods for the car.

BMW went from a single turbo in a N55 to a twin turbo of the S55. And that was mid life cycle action of the 2 series generation. And for Toybaru this other motor also already exists in other platforms. The more you use it the cheaper it gets. Economy of scale.

Charge extra $5k for an FI version. It’s not a totally different car. It’s a variant. But it would feel like a different car, and this is what makes it financially attractive. Small investment and re-use of FI motor, but they get a higher sales price and bigger slice of the market because those who walked away because of low power are now interested again.

This also made sense to Toyota with the Supra offering a 4 and a 6 cyl motor.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by super51fan

Saying "again" does not legitimize your point. I read it and fully understood, I just disagree.

The customer is always right, and if the lack of power is deterring paying customers then it should be considered. I can't say I have the market research on the potential turbo 86, but neither do you to say there isn't a business case.

That's fine if you disagree, we are both sharing our own opinions.

But seeing as Toyota/Subaru likely HAVE done the market research and have decided not to do it............I'm going to make an ass out of myself and ASSUME it's because they don't see a $35k+ BRZ selling enough to make it worthwhile.

Would I love to see a turbo BRZ? Hell yes. Can I see myself dropping $35k or more on one? It would have to really strong right out of the box.

I just don't think it's going to happen.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

That's fine if you disagree, we are both sharing our own opinions.

But seeing as Toyota/Subaru likely HAVE done the market research and have decided not to do it............I'm going to make an ass out of myself and ASSUME it's because they don't see a $35k+ BRZ selling enough to make it worthwhile.

Would I love to see a turbo BRZ? Hell yes. Can I see myself dropping $35k or more on one? It would have to really strong right out of the box.

I just don't think it's going to happen.

That raises the question about the $43k Supra 2.0, where is the business proposition there? They clearly see some sort of market for this who want a ~250hp sports coupe. I'd argue that a $35k turbo 86 (with a 6mt of course) is a much more compelling buy than the half-baked effort on Toyota's part with the $43k Supra 2.0 despite the refinement advantages of the Supra.

By 2025, we will at minimum see a hybrid/electric 86 per Toyota's initiative. Expect this version to be at that $35k price point given the additional equipment.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by super51fan

That raises the question about the $43k Supra 2.0, where is the business proposition there? They clearly see some sort of market for this who want a ~250hp sports coupe. I'd argue that a $35k turbo 86 (with a 6mt of course) is a much more compelling buy than the half-baked effort on Toyota's part with the $43k Supra 2.0 despite the refinement advantages of the Supra.

By 2025, we will at minimum see a hybrid/electric 86 per Toyota's initiative. Expect this version to be at that $35k price point given the additional equipment.

My guess is because:
1. BMW already had a turbo 4 to throw in the Supra. (we could get in to the whole they used a BMW because they didn't think they could profitability build the car on their own).
2. Many European countries have taxes based on engine size, which is why BMW has the 2.0 L turbo 4 to begin with. Even the mighty E30 M3 was sold in some countries with a 2.0L S14 because of taxes, vs the 2.3 everyone else got.


I suspect the 2.0 Supra wouldn't exist if BMW didn't already have a longitudinally mounted 4 cylinder in the catalog.


As for hybrid/electric, no idea. I haven't followed that aspect closely. I know for a "sports car" that is supposed to be lightweight (comparatively to current vehicle offerings) simple sports car.............I wouldn't be a buyer on one.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

My guess is because:
1. BMW already had a turbo 4 to throw in the Supra. (we could get in to the whole they used a BMW because they didn't think they could profitability build the car on their own).
2. Many European countries have taxes based on engine size, which is why BMW has the 2.0 L turbo 4 to begin with. Even the mighty E30 M3 was sold in some countries with a 2.0L S14 because of taxes, vs the 2.3 everyone else got.


I suspect the 2.0 Supra wouldn't exist if BMW didn't already have a longitudinally mounted 4 cylinder in the catalog.


As for hybrid/electric, no idea. I haven't followed that aspect closely. I know for a "sports car" that is supposed to be lightweight (comparatively to current vehicle offerings) simple sports car.............I wouldn't be a buyer on one.

Not just the Supra 2.0 existing, but it existing in the US where it is DOA in the marketplace. It was obviously cheap and easy for it to be developed since the Z4 30i was/is already developed, but there still has to be a market for it to be brought to the US. Toyota clearly thinks there is a market for a ~250hp sports coupe.

This also brings up another good point. The 86 getting an NA 2.4L doesn't make sense for an economical car outside of the US since it will have increased taxes due to the additional .4L.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by super51fan

Not just the Supra 2.0 existing, but it existing in the US where it is DOA in the marketplace. It was obviously cheap and easy for it to be developed since the Z4 30i was/is already developed, but there still has to be a market for it to be brought to the US. Toyota clearly thinks there is a market for a ~250hp sports coupe.

This also brings up another good point. The 86 getting an NA 2.4L doesn't make sense for an economical car outside of the US since it will have increased taxes due to the additional .4L.

It may be offset by 30% cheaper to start? I don't know, I'm not a higher up there. Just speculating off what they are actually doing vs what I want them to do.

I'd love to see a gnarly 320hp turbo BRZ with Brembo's and proper suspension from the factory. But I suspect the market for a $45k BRZ is incredibly small.

You can buy a Camaro SS 1LE with track warranty for less than that.

So my guess is that keeping it sub-$30 minus the performance package (like on the current ones that added a few k to the price) so the young guys can buy is the reason.

When I had mine, I didn't know many (actually any) middle guys with a family owning one. When I bought mine at 32 I was already one of the "old guys" that owned a BRZ.

[Machinebuilder]

I am actually glad to see they are still making these cars. I do not think they make much money compared to making another suv. Low cost fun 2 door sports cars available with a manual are getting rare. There must be some real car guys in these companies to get this done.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

It may be offset by 30% cheaper to start? I don't know, I'm not a higher up there. Just speculating off what they are actually doing vs what I want them to do.

I'd love to see a gnarly 320hp turbo BRZ with Brembo's and proper suspension from the factory. But I suspect the market for a $45k BRZ is incredibly small.

You can buy a Camaro SS 1LE with track warranty for less than that.

So my guess is that keeping it sub-$30 minus the performance package (like on the current ones that added a few k to the price) so the young guys can buy is the reason.

When I had mine, I didn't know many (actually any) middle guys with a family owning one. When I bought mine at 32 I was already one of the "old guys" that owned a BRZ.

There is definitely a huge gap between the Supra 3.0 and entry 86, it just sucks that it was filled with a stripped out Supra instead of a performance 86.

I really don’t think $30k to $35k is that big of jump even for young guys who want a little more performance and have the extra the cash. I also don’t think this is any different than those who buy the STI over the WRX. As long as they keep a >$30k model I don’t see what is wrong with this formula.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by super51fan

There is definitely a huge gap between the Supra 3.0 and entry 86, it just sucks that it was filled with a stripped out Supra instead of a performance 86.

I really don’t think $30k to $35k is that big of jump even for young guys who want a little more performance and have the extra the cash. I also don’t think this is any different than those who buy the STI over the WRX. As long as they keep a >$30k model I don’t see what is wrong with this formula.

Right, even 8 years ago you could get 305HP WRX for just about $35k.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by super51fan

There is definitely a huge gap between the Supra 3.0 and entry 86, it just sucks that it was filled with a stripped out Supra instead of a performance 86.

I really don’t think $30k to $35k is that big of jump even for young guys who want a little more performance and have the extra the cash. I also don’t think this is any different than those who buy the STI over the WRX. As long as they keep a >$30k model I don’t see what is wrong with this formula.

Probably not. But from my experience with hanging around these guys at meets and such, many of them were stretching to even buy an FR-S @$25k. Still have roommates, etc.

But I'm with you, I would definitely prefer the hopped up BRZ over the 2.0 Supra. Maybe Edelbrock will almost immediately come out with a Supercharger for the BRZ again. If you paid an ASE tech to install it, Edelbrock would put a 3/36k warranty on your drivetrain, since you just voided* the stock one. Hopefully this gen will still have the overkill fuel system. The stock fuel system on the previous gen could support 250-260 whp with no issues.

* yes I know technically they don't void they warranty, but any claim to drivetrain will be denied as soon as they open the hood.

[supra93]

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...142652&page=16

[heavyD^2]

I see Subaru is still fixated on the boomerang LED on their headlights and taillights.

[Moflow]

I'm a fan of this so far. Looks reasonably tasteful.

[supra93]

A photoshop.

[fastboatster]

Didn’t read the whole discussion but would like to point out that next gen turbo Toyobaru could probably just use Subaru’s turbo FA20 engine from wrx instead of na fa20 variant they got now.

[R N M]

As a former BRZ owner, very excited about the new one and also the new Nissan Z - these will most likely be some of the last JDM ICE sports cars with a manual.

[Alfisti]

IMHO turbo charging runs this car. Now, in saying that, surely a 2.5 litre NA engine can make more power/torque than the current car, like considerably more. That's not a small engine.

[supra93]

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...142652&page=23

[kaputt]

I'm liking everything I've seen so far. Hopefully it stays naturally aspirated.

[supra93]

Subaru has officially confirmed that the next-gen BRZ sports car will be unveiled on 18 November, but it won't be coming to Europe.

A spokesperson told Autocar that the coupé will be a US-only model and that there are "no plans" to launch it in Europe, as is the case with Nissan's similarly positioned new 400Z.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3381145

[W///]

Originally Posted by supra93

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3381145

Just read on Autoblog about the same thing. Would be quite sad if it didn't reach any other market, but once again goes to show that while us enthusiasts respect cars like this, not many people are buying them.

It's no wonder manufacturers are either collaborating or abandoning this segment completely.

[supra93]

From what I reading this could be just for the U.S./Canada and Japan. That's the only markets where the car has been spotted testing anyways.