FIA taking action on Red Bulls flexible rear wing

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Do you think that finding a way to sneak answers into a proctored test is good thinking or cheating?

Do you think that the VW emissions test mode program was cheating?

Seriously. I'm asking you to answer these in light of your view on RBR.

Do you think that finding a way to sneak answers into a proctored test is good thinking or cheating? CHEATING

Do you think that the VW emissions test mode program was cheating? YES

The difference is lack of Intent.
A student sneaking answers into a test does so with intent.
VW intended to cheat.

Red Bull produced a wing that passed the current FIA test. Plus to the naked eye the wing is flexing. There was no intent to deceive in the Red Bulls case thus no cheating occurred. Other teams just weren't smart enough to figure it out.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

.....

Red Bull produced a wing that passed the current FIA test. Plus to the naked eye the wing is flexing. There was no intent to deceive in the Red Bulls case thus no cheating occurred. Other teams just weren't smart enough to figure it out.

Absolutely disagree with lack of intent.
RB has a history of this.

Almost exactly the same circumstance with the front wing a few years ago.
The wings passed the static load tests but were later found to flex under racing conditions.

Now it's the rear wing... rinse and repeat.
Here we go again.

The thing that bothers me the most is RB are usually the ones taking issue when others (like Ferrari) are being "creative".
But it's OK for them to do it.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by yco

that vibrations on the fin probably causes a time lose.. im not an aerodynamicist but a surface that vibrates is not something to help for its performance.. but bending and changing the angle on the straights does.. clearly..

Yes you're not an aerodynamicist and you inply that the ones at mercedes either didn't notice this phenomenon or they are incapable to stiffen up that finn where the engineers at RB can?
Neither of these 2 options are very likely.
Everything a layman like me sees in a video, the aerodynamicists at Mercedes have seen 10 times over and have measured and calcualted at that phenomenon. If those vibrations and flexing should impede performance.... I'm pretty sure they would have fixed it.
Nothing we could ever ever see in these videos are things the engineers at mercedes would have missed. Everything we see is a result of what they engineer very very carefully.
When you see something flapping around in the breeze on an F1 car.......it's ment to do that.

Trust me, they are very much ahead of us

My only point was regarding the statement of 'rigid'.
If that RB spoiler isnt rigid, that merc finn also isnt 'rigid'
And imho none of those issues are 'coincidental'. Those engineers are way too smart for that.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Do you think that finding a way to sneak answers into a proctored test is good thinking or cheating? CHEATING

Do you think that the VW emissions test mode program was cheating? YES

The difference is lack of Intent.
A student sneaking answers into a test does so with intent.
VW intended to cheat.

Red Bull produced a wing that passed the current FIA test. Plus to the naked eye the wing is flexing. There was no intent to deceive in the Red Bulls case thus no cheating occurred. Other teams just weren't smart enough to figure it out.

I will respond to you on this post. Beating the test is not complying with the rules. The rule on aero on cars is specifically worded:

Article 3.8 of the F1 technical regulations states that bodywork must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

Passing a test doesn't make one a master of any subject matter in college or in any school.

Red Bull Racing, as has been done historically in that shop, have created a wing that passes the test, which has know levels of pressure in a static application, but successfully deforms under full load at a certain dynamic aero pressure level. Passing the test designed by the FIA doesn't mean they are complying with Article 3.8. Article 3.8 doesn't read, "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car and pass the static deformation test performed by the FIA."

Now as to intent:

The way you design a CF part to do this is to alter the density of the matrix solution and alter the number of carbon strands and their diameter in that area relative to the number in the remaining portion of the cf material.

To design in this way is the very definition of intent to circumvent the rules. And for context, I worked on CF as a young engineering student in 1983 when I ran the materials lab in college. We ran fracture, bulk modulus, elasticity, and dozens of other test on CF back then when it was still relatively new and exotic...especially in the states. If memory serves correctly, McLaren was the first to build a fully CF monocoque under John Bernard.

Edit: Smart isn't the right word to define what RBR did with the wing. Clever is probably closer to accurate with duplicitous being most accurate.

Duplicitous: n. Deliberate deceptiveness in behavior or speech.
n. An instance of deliberate deceptiveness; double-dealing.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

But this isn't college exams. It's engineering warfare.

It's still cheating.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Article 3.8 of the F1 technical regulations states that bodywork must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

OK, but how are we difining 'immobile'? When I Google the definition of 'immobile', I get this:

adjective
not moving; motionless.

By that definition, every single car on the grid should be DQ'd. The FIA defined 'immobile' with their set of static tests. RB passed the FIA's tests.

I still think this has more to do with the fact that it's Red Bull doing it and not a universally liked team i.e. Williams, etc. If the latter were the case, I don't think we wouldn't be talking about this.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

OK, but how are we difining 'immobile'? When I Google the definition of 'immobile', I get this:

adjective
not moving; motionless.

By that definition, every single car on the grid should be DQ'd. The FIA defined 'immobile' with their set of static tests. RB passed the FIA's tests.

I still think this has more to do with the fact that it's Red Bull doing it and not a universally liked team i.e. Williams, etc. If the latter were the case, I don't think we wouldn't be talking about this.

You're cherry picking. Read the entirety of the rule. You are deliberately leaving out, "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car". The RBR wing does not fit this parameter which is why it will be out in France.

And to be clear...I LOVE INNOVATION IN F1!!

The Brawn Double Diffuser and the even more radical one on the never-raced Toyota TF-109 were things of beauty. DAS was brilliant. The McLaren F-Duct...brilliant. The Renault Mass Damper...brilliant. These exploited loopholes in the rules which were closed. The Flexible Wing is DESIGNED and MANUFACTURED to get around the rule and the testing for the rule. It is like the Ferrari Fuel Flow shenanigans. It was a cheat designed specifically to circumvent the letter and spirit of the rules. It's straight-up cheating.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

You're cherry picking. Read the entirety of the rule. You are deliberately leaving out, "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car". The RBR wing does not fit this parameter which is why it will be out in France.

And to be clear...I LOVE INNOVATION IN F1!!

The Brawn Double Diffuser and the even more radical one on the never-raced Toyota TF-109 were things of beauty. DAS was brilliant. The McLaren F-Duct...brilliant. The Renault Mass Damper...brilliant. These exploited loopholes in the rules which were closed. The Flexible Wing is DESIGNED and MANUFACTURED to get around the rule and the testing for the rule. It is like the Ferrari Fuel Flow shenanigans. It was a cheat designed specifically to circumvent the letter and spirit of the rules. It's straight-up cheating.

The Red Bull wing was and is approved by the FIA regulations .

Remember the Mercedes DAS , already used in "2018 by HAM while it wasn't FIA approved .
You guys said : DAS isn't cheating , It's a Mercedes "Invention" and Red Bull should work harder to catch up...
Well probably Red Bull found an so called Invention as well , and you guys start to cry like a little baby girl .

Mercedes can better look what's under HAM's PU cover , regarding the Warp-Speed Mode ...
Otherwise Red Bull will do it before this season is over...#FIA !

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The Red Bull wing was and is approved by the FIA regulations .

Remember the Mercedes DAS , already used in "2018 by HAM while it wasn't FIA approved .
You guys said : DAS isn't cheating , It's a Mercedes "Invention" and Red Bull should work harder to catch up...
Well probably Red Bull found an so called Invention as well , and you guys start to cry like a little baby girl .

Mercedes can better look what's under HAM's PU cover , regarding the Warp-Speed Mode ...
Otherwise Red Bull will do it before this season is over...#FIA !

My friend, you are DEAD WRONG. They pulled this BS 10 years ago with front wings and got their wrists slapped. Same BS, different end of the car.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

It's still cheating.

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree with what can and can't be done with regards to F1 wings.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree with what can and can't be done with regards to F1 wings.

Read my post 95 and look up the last time RBR did this. Learn from the result of that.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Read my post 95 and look up the last time RBR did this. Learn from the result of that.

Tests are carried out statically within the rules for the test ''at the time'' in force.
A statical test can be made on a car (with this test) after a race to test the rigidity with little or no change. There must be ''some''give with every structure my friend or the damn thing would break.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

My friend, you are DEAD WRONG. They pulled this BS 10 years ago with front wings and got their wrists slapped. Same BS, different end of the car.

I don't think so :
Marko said yesterday , Red Bull isn't the only team who is targeted by the FIA ...
And we can help the FIA , just like Mercedes did !

HAM and Toto know that MAX is really fast (too fast) in this season , so they started their psychological BS games .

As I said : "WAR"

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

They found a loophole. Every single team on the grid spends endless resources trying to find loopholes. Double diffusers, DAS, F-duct, etc. This is F1 101. Again, don't hate the player, hate the game.

There is no loophole...its cheating plain and simple.

"Formula 1 Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a
Competition.
Should a Competitor introduce a new design or system or feel that any aspect of these
regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula One Technical
Department. If clarification relates to any new design or system, correspondence must
include:
a. A full description of the design or system.
b. Drawings or schematics where appropriate.
c. The Competitor's opinion concerning the immediate implications on other parts of
the car of any proposed new design.
d. The Competitor's opinion concerning any possible long term consequences or new
developments which may come from using any such new designs or systems.
e. The precise way or ways in which the Competitor feels the new design or system will
enhance the performance of the car"

Red Bull clearly did not comply with the above WRT their moveable rear wing assembly.
Whereas Mercedes did communicate their DAS design as above which was later prohibited under the following regulation:

"New systems or technologies
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but
which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be
admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the
Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel
it adds no value to Formula One in general, it may be specifically prohibited by the FIA."


And therein lies the difference...Mercedes played by the rules with DAS while Red Bull (and likely others) sought to cheat the rules.

[text in italics is quoted from the 2021 F1 technical regulations]

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There is no loophole...its cheating plain and simple.

"Formula 1 Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a
Competition.
Should a Competitor introduce a new design or system or feel that any aspect of these
regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula One Technical
Department. If clarification relates to any new design or system, correspondence must
include:
a. A full description of the design or system.
b. Drawings or schematics where appropriate.
c. The Competitor's opinion concerning the immediate implications on other parts of
the car of any proposed new design.
d. The Competitor's opinion concerning any possible long term consequences or new
developments which may come from using any such new designs or systems.
e. The precise way or ways in which the Competitor feels the new design or system will
enhance the performance of the car"

Red Bull clearly did not comply with the above WRT their moveable rear wing assembly.
Whereas Mercedes did communicate their DAS design as above which was later prohibited under the following regulation:

"New systems or technologies
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but
which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be
admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the
Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel
it adds no value to Formula One in general, it may be specifically prohibited by the FIA."


And therein lies the difference...Mercedes played by the rules with DAS while Red Bull (and likely others) sought to cheat the rules.

[text in italics is quoted from the 2021 F1 technical regulations]

An oldie but goodie!!

RBR...The NASA of Cheating

https://jalopnik.com/red-bull-racing...ing-1663441969

[yco]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes you're not an aerodynamicist and you inply that the ones at mercedes either didn't notice this phenomenon or they are incapable to stiffen up that finn where the engineers at RB can?
Neither of these 2 options are very likely.
Everything a layman like me sees in a video, the aerodynamicists at Mercedes have seen 10 times over and have measured and calcualted at that phenomenon. If those vibrations and flexing should impede performance.... I'm pretty sure they would have fixed it.
Nothing we could ever ever see in these videos are things the engineers at mercedes would have missed. Everything we see is a result of what they engineer very very carefully.
When you see something flapping around in the breeze on an F1 car.......it's ment to do that.

Trust me, they are very much ahead of us

My only point was regarding the statement of 'rigid'.
If that RB spoiler isnt rigid, that merc finn also isnt 'rigid'
And imho none of those issues are 'coincidental'. Those engineers are way too smart for that.

nothing on any car is "rigid" there is nothing like infinite rigidity in physics..

Merc's fin vibrates, Red Bull's rear wing bends.. lets separate them first..

and even if we assume your conspiracy is right.. bending rear wing gives a vast amount of advantage.. you dont need to be an aerodynamicist to know this..

yes i agree with one part that, they re ahead of time..

[yco]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I don't think so :
Marko said yesterday , Red Bull isn't the only team who is targeted by the FIA ...
And we can help the FIA , just like Mercedes did !

HAM and Toto know that MAX is really fast (too fast) in this season , so they started their psychological BS games .

As I said : "WAR"

Marko can say that mate.. tomorrow he can say they re pulling out from F1.. the next day they say they re going for their own engine facility.. its Marko.. he and Christian talks a lot.. and that war is on for quite some time now already..

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by yco

Marko can say that mate.. tomorrow he can say they re pulling out from F1.. the next day they say they re going for their own engine facility.. its Marko.. he and Christian talks a lot.. and that war is on for quite some time now already..

You guys talks a lot as well regarding HAM's drivers peformance

As like :

"It ISN'T the car " It's the driver ! That's why HAM is the 7 X World Champ ..
Actually crazy BS !!!

So ...Honestly ! I don't see the correlation between a stupid wing and MAX's drivers performance !

• MAX is a little too fast for Mercedes mate ! It's just there where the knot is tied !

It already stinks 7 seasons like 5H1T on the Mercedes side , and under the W12 PU cover even more ...
It's useless to talk about the Mercedes cheating inventions like the Party-Mode , Magic-Mode , Tire cooling in wheels , DAS , ect...

All the rest is just BS !!!

[yco]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

You guys talks a lot as well regarding HAM's drivers peformance

As like :

"It ISN'T the car " It's the driver ! That's why HAM is the 7 X World Champ ..
Actually crazy BS !!!

So ...Honestly ! I don't see the correlation between a stupid wing and MAX's drivers performance !

• MAX is a little too fast for Mercedes mate ! It's just there where the knot is tied !

It already stinks 7 seasons like 5H1T on the Mercedes side , and under the W12 PU cover even more ...
It's useless to talk about the Mercedes cheating inventions like the Party-Mode , Magic-Mode , Tire cooling in wheels , DAS , ect...

All the rest is just BS !!!

ok mate Lewis cant drive..

[Killed by Death]

Ok, dumb question, DAS moves the tires and surely affects aerodynamics of the car. Why is the effect of this system not ruled as creating a moveable aerodynamic device?

Best uneducated guess, because the wheels and tires are unsprung weight

Cue the smart person, GO

First to answer gets a prize.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by yco

ok mate Lewis cant drive..

I "never said HAM can't drive his Merc !

Honestly mate , listen :
Don't you think HAM got more advantage from exceeding 29 times the track limits than MAX with the stupid RB wing ?

Or pushed a stupid wing HAM to his 7 x Championships ?
I don't think so...

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Ok, dumb question, DAS moves the tires and surely affects aerodynamics of the car. Why is the effect of this system not ruled as creating a moveable aerodynamic device?

Best uneducated guess, because the wheels and tires are unsprung weight

Cue the smart person, GO

First to answer gets a prize.

DAS isn't a moveable aerodynamic device as it only changes the toe with the goal of affecting tire temperature.