The Secret BMW M Garage CSL Special - Parts 1 & 2 (M5 CSL, V8 M3 CSL, M2 CSL)

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I expect the 10% improvements in multiple fronts (weight, speed, power) will quickly will elevate this car to a deserved hero status. Provided the ride isn't brutal (super stiff suspension did the F82 GTS in) I am sure those who get one will be very happy with them. And from all accounts, M has learned its lessons - demonstrated with the suspensions on the M2 CS and M5 CS.

The specs read closer to a CS to me. E46 CSL was far more hardcore for the time. The F82 GTS actually delivers if set up right, CSL should have a similar setup just done better. IMO CSL should be for the track, not only for show. There needs to be appropriate separation between CS and CSL, and I’m not sure there’s a lot of room for a meaningful CS here.

This car will only reach hero status among BMW fans I think. No rear seats and it probably won’t be competitive with comparably priced Porsches or Corvettes. When you remove the rear seats you are de-facto competing with dedicated sports cars because you’ve removed the entire reason to get a BMW GT car over something even less practical.

I have zero doubt it’s an awesome machine, I just question the product positioning and strategy.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by F87 M2 CS

Its the first time that i say no to a CSL and prefer the CS. Maybe im biased but :

*S55
*CS Carbon hood looks way better and unique (bespoke)
*Carbon roof derived from the racecars , and still the only roof applied from a racecar to a road car and that makes it unique. (bespoke)
*Comes with a 6MT , i dont think the M2 CSL would be offered with it.
* Does not have that wing , id rather a ducktail and prob that would be offered but the project showed the M2 CSL had that wing , imagine it without the wing (last photo)

Yes , love its interior and its very close to the CS but id rather have the back seats just like any traditional BMW. Maybe for the same weight , since no roll cage.

And maybe thats it , thats why they chose the CS over it , and im glad they did!

I couldn't agree with you more. Although, I think, the poor sales of the M4 GTS left a sour note for BMW. They still had some unsold almost two years after first release.

I think, they might have taken that into account before releasing a baby version of the bigger brother. Truth be told, that prototype is more akin to the F82 GTS, IMHO, than the E46 CSL.

Like your good self, I'm glad they released the CS instead.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I couldn't agree with you more. Although, I think, the poor sales of the M4 GTS left a sour note for BMW. They still had some unsold almost two years after first release.

I think, they might have taken that into account before releasing a baby version of the bigger brother. Truth be told, that prototype is more akin to the F82 GTS, IMHO, than the E46 CSL.

Like your good self, I'm glad they released the CS instead.

Mostly agree.

I think they made a mistake with the GTS suspension setup, pricing, and marketing. It got a reputation it probably didn’t deserve, ultimately. It also feels like the economic conditions have changed since the GTS came out and the crazy prices are more acceptable. You could argue that the GTS was even more hardcore than this CSL. Of course, it didn’t seem to be well sorted from the factory.

I think even for the CS cars, BMW needs to be going with more transparent mechanical changes and not just holding back software tweaks etc. The F80/82 CS had to be basically given away because there were almost zero big hardware changes and the perception was it is barely better than ZCP. Buyers of these cars are enthusiasts and want to know what they are getting for the sizeable cost increase. GM, for all their faults, does the best job of this. The ZL1 1LE and ZR1 get serious upgraded dampers and stuff you can see in the spec sheet. Not just lighter weight body panels.

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by chris719

The specs read closer to a CS to me. E46 CSL was far more hardcore for the time. The F82 GTS actually delivers if set up right, CSL should have a similar setup just done better. IMO CSL should be for the track, not only for show. There needs to be appropriate separation between CS and CSL, and I’m not sure there’s a lot of room for a meaningful CS here.

This car will only reach hero status among BMW fans I think. No rear seats and it probably won’t be competitive with comparably priced Porsches or Corvettes. When you remove the rear seats you are de-facto competing with dedicated sports cars because you’ve removed the entire reason to get a BMW GT car over something even less practical.

I have zero doubt it’s an awesome machine, I just question the product positioning and strategy.

In this day and age , CSL doesnt mean what it used to be anymore. What it used to be , it was based on the CS , but it used to be lighter and more track focused (which is nowadays , but not exactly)

On modern cars , this is the case imo
Can you make it lightweight ? - By today standards No way.
Can you make it lightweight compared to the basic version ? - Def, it can be done , and thats the case.

Rumors say that the M3 CS G80 production will only built 500-600 cars. Comparing to the G82 CSL , its just half the production. And its said to be similar priced too.

I am for both cars , i just hope they kept the back seats , in such a big car , removing the seats puts it in serious competition, but what would then be the CS and CSL difference, and whats the point without roll cage after all. I also havent understood the direction.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by F87 M2 CS

In this day and age , CSL doesnt mean what it used to be anymore. What it used to be , it was based on the CS , but it used to be lighter and more track focused (which is nowadays , but not exactly)

On modern cars , this is the case imo
Can you make it lightweight ? - By today standards No way.
Can you make it lightweight compared to the basic version ? - Def, it can be done , and thats the case.

Rumors say that the M3 CS G80 production will only built 500-600 cars. Comparing to the G82 CSL , its just half the production. And its said to be similar priced too.

I am for both cars , i just hope they kept the back seats , in such a big car , removing the seats puts it in serious competition, but what would then be the CS and CSL difference, and whats the point without roll cage after all. I also havent understood the direction.

I think we need to get used to the new definition of CSL: it's no longer CS Light; it now stands for CS Lighter! Not lighter than the previous CSL, but lighter than what it could have otherwise been.

Not ideal, but understandable. Go back to the muscle-cars of the 60s and 70s and see how much they weighed.

We have to get the past out of our minds, it doesn't matter how much what weighed and how fast it went around a track or around a country.

Everything is relative, CSL today doesn't mean what it did 15 or 50 years ago; that's just pure commonsense.

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I think we need to get used to the new definition of CSL: it's no longer CS Light; it now stands for CS Lighter! Not lighter than the previous CSL, but lighter than what it could have otherwise been.

Not ideal, but understandable. Go back to the muscle-cars of the 60s and 70s and see how much they weighed.

We have to get the past out of our minds, it doesn't matter how much what weighed and how fast it went around a track or around a country.

Everything is relative, CSL today doesn't mean what it did 15 or 50 years ago; that's just pure commonsense.

In a few words ,yes its what you said above , and i agree .

The whole world is changing..

And if you go a bit backwards , do you remember when BMW said that will cut manufacturing costs by 25% by 2025 ? and then you see staff like this etc : https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1927354

Its a worldwide phenomenon , one that existed , but its getting serious now.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by F87 M2 CS

Its the first time that i say no to a CSL and prefer the CS. Maybe im biased but :

Are you comparing the F87 M2 CS with the F87 M2 CSL prototype from the video, or something else?

*S55
*CS Carbon hood looks way better and unique (bespoke)
*Carbon roof derived from the racecars , and still the only roof applied from a racecar to a road car and that makes it unique. (bespoke)

The F87 M2 CSL would have those as well.

*Comes with a 6MT , i dont think the M2 CSL would be offered with it.
* Does not have that wing , id rather a ducktail and prob that would be offered but the project showed the M2 CSL had that wing , imagine it without the wing (last photo)

Yes , love its interior and its very close to the CS but id rather have the back seats just like any traditional BMW. Maybe for the same weight , since no roll cage.

And maybe thats it , thats why they chose the CS over it , and im glad they did!

Agreed.

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by mbanck

Are you comparing the F87 M2 CS with the F87 M2 CSL prototype from the video, or something else?



The F87 M2 CSL would have those as well.



Agreed.

Imo , the M2 CSL was never a real thing , and has nothing to do with the CS , its an early prototype probably from 2016-17 , took clues from M4 GTS , but the real development was done on the real M2 CS.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by F87 M2 CS

Imo , the M2 CSL was never a real thing , and has nothing to do with the CS , its an early prototype probably from 2016-17 , took clues from M4 GTS , but the real development was done on the real M2 CS.

The sole F87CSL was prototyped in 2018 just before they rolled out the F87-Competition

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by chris719

Mostly agree.

I think they made a mistake with the GTS suspension setup, pricing, and marketing. It got a reputation it probably didn't deserve, ultimately. It also feels like the economic conditions have changed since the GTS came out and the crazy prices are more acceptable. You could argue that the GTS was even more hardcore than this CSL. Of course, it didn't seem to be well sorted from the factory.

I think even for the CS cars, BMW needs to be going with more transparent mechanical changes and not just holding back software tweaks etc. The F80/82 CS had to be basically given away because there were almost zero big hardware changes and the perception was it is barely better than ZCP. Buyers of these cars are enthusiasts and want to know what they are getting for the sizeable cost increase. GM, for all their faults, does the best job of this. The ZL1 1LE and ZR1 get serious upgraded dampers and stuff you can see in the spec sheet. Not just lighter weight body panels.

No, the F8X CS was "given away" because BMW priced themselves out of the market. That was even more of a truism with the GTS. They were encroaching on Porsche territory at a time when there wasn't any ADM on the 911's closest in performance to the CS. It made absolute sense to start looking at the Carrera S when the CS was a six-figure car. The CS had an MSRP that was only a few thousand dollars shy of the Carrera S' MSRP; the GTS MSRP was well above a Carrera GTS.

[FC05]

These clips are BMW telling us that they still care about making driving machines and they care a lot for their enthusiastic buyers while still need to face reality which is to sell cars, these one offs were all experiments and prototypes for those followed
That e46 V8 CSL could be the beginning of the E92 M3 with V8, the active aero and those things on M2 CSL to me were some studies for what we have with CS models and performance parts.
Anyway
I'm too feel confused with G82 M4 CSL thinking it's gotten too comfortable and luxurious for the name, or BMW should just make CSL a street car with advanced Motorsport tech while obtained the comfort and luxury and to offer us the real track focused GTS models latter on.
CS and CSL models for street with all the comfort features and maximize handling and driving pleasure, GTS (maybe only for M2 and M4) with more radical Aeros and wings (of course effective) and adjustable set ups and striped off lightness for track days. That will be my ideal line ups from M.
Last but not least, BMW should rethink and make a pure sport car like the size of the Z4M again, look at what Porsche GT4 have done, a proper small sport car can make this world a whole lot better place lol

[mkizzo]

😳 I need educating

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by mkizzo

😳 I need educating

Unique I guess, or never to be repeated

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by chris719

I think even for the CS cars, BMW needs to be going with more transparent mechanical changes and not just holding back software tweaks etc.

Agreed. I can't figure why they have not been more forthcoming on some of the details that matter. Lack of transparency breeds distrust and then eventually cynicism. Never a good thing in the longer run.

[FC05]

Originally Posted by mkizzo

😳 I need educating

This organic style wing brace is designed and made by their 3D printing tech so the maximum strength and optimal weight saving can be achieved, the same way the S58 internal block was designed and produced (printed)

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

No, the F8X CS was "given away" because BMW priced themselves out of the market. That was even more of a truism with the GTS. They were encroaching on Porsche territory at a time when there wasn't any ADM on the 911's closest in performance to the CS. It made absolute sense to start looking at the Carrera S when the CS was a six-figure car. The CS had an MSRP that was only a few thousand dollars shy of the Carrera S' MSRP; the GTS MSRP was well above a Carrera GTS.

Yes, I agree. What I meant to imply is that the perception of the car did not match up with the price.

Originally Posted by FC05

This organic style wing brace is designed and made by their 3D printing tech so the maximum strength and optimal weight saving can be achieved, the same way the S58 internal block was designed and produced (printed)

Probably the result of someone doing internal training on the CAD tools or additive prototyping process . Seems rather pointless to spend hours saving a few grams from a wing support otherwise.

[gsrbri]

At the 2:00 mark. They used the CF seats from the Euro GTS F82. Awesome.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Agreed. I can't figure why they have not been more forthcoming on some of the details that matter. Lack of transparency breeds distrust and then eventually cynicism. Never a good thing in the longer run.

BMW has made too many hits lately for anyone to be justified in feeling distrust in the brand. The M2 CS and M5 CS were amazing cars with minimal mechanical changes on paper.

BMW is making more of its changes now with software than hardware, and when you pay $140k, you are paying for the chassis engineers and programmers that must be paid for that software.

If people aren't comfortable with that, there is a buyer waiting behind them with their money ready to take their spot.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

If people aren't comfortable with that, there is a buyer waiting behind them with their money ready to take their spot.

I suppose that's true. I cancelled my last M car deposit and went instead with a p car. No doubt someone else will take my spot. I suspect Porsche don't mind extending their waiting times either. I'm 5 months into a 13-15 month wait.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I suppose that's true. I cancelled my last M car deposit and went instead with a p car. No doubt someone else will take my spot. I suspect Porsche don't mind extending their waiting times either. I'm 5 months into a 13-15 month wait.

I think most buyers feel more comfortable with paying premiums for P-Cars as there is a sense that each model up charge (from S to GTS to Turbo to GT) possesses clear mechanical upgrades.

But BMWs special cars are more and more defined by what you cannot clearly see on a spec sheet.

That's just the difference between the philosophy of these two brands at the current moment. Doesn't make them less special or mean that less work went into them. It took some time, but buyers seem to appreciate BMWs approach now.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I think most buyers feel more comfortable with paying premiums for P-Cars as there is a sense that each model up charge (from S to GTS to Turbo to GT) possesses clear mechanical upgrades.

But BMWs special cars are more and more defined by what you cannot clearly see on a spec sheet.

That's just the difference between the philosophy of these two brands at the current moment. Doesn't make them less special or mean that less work went into them. It took some time, but buyers seem to appreciate BMWs approach now.

I think that's a fair call. I ordered a GTS over a S as the delta was pretty obvious. As a CS owner there was a good 24 months of bile before the dust settled.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by 10"

there was never—was never any time!

but there was a 1M prototype
with a V8 in it, as I was told
by BMW AG themselves
they felt the N54 suited
the character of the 1M more.

Sure that you weren't referring to the typo in the US 1M manual (copied from the E92 M3 manual) ?