2020-202x Corvette Stingray

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

So what you're saying is, I may be able to pick up a new, leftover C7 next year for CHEAP?

I picked up my GS last year, a car that has a sticker of $88K, for $65K.

IMO you will always be able to pick up a Corvette dirt cheap if you're willing to wait out the initial rush. I remember a co-worker bought a brand new C7 Stingray in 2014, was all excited to drive it daily to work after waiting nearly 8 months for it. Put down a deposit as soon as he saw it at the car shows.

I think he paid more for his Stingray in 2014 than I paid for my 2017 GS.

I might have mentioned it earlier in this thread, but GM's model has always been to make MORE cars than the dealership network can sell, and let them deal with it. If you're willing to wait, by this time next year you should be able to buy a C8 under MSRP.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Pleaser

A local salesperson told me they have pretty much booked all of their 2020 C8 allocations and are moving on to 2021 models, with delivery of late 2020.

That's meaningless as 2020 allocation is going to be for a very short year. Much like MY2018 there was a "shortage" of C7s when sales finally caught up to remaining inventory for the 3 months that the plant was shut down to accommodate for restructure.

From what I understand, the first customer vehicles won't be built until closer to December of this year, and if GM follows form, 2021 MY will start in August or September of 2020. That means there's only 9-10 months of production for 2020, and would likely create a shortfall for allocations.

Granted, IF their projection of 50,000 annual production is correct, that's still 30,000 C8 sold within the first 3 months of allocation becoming available. That's an incredible number and GM should be very proud and happy.

But just like my OTHER garage queen. The MZ4 Coupe, when it was announced in 2006, ALL available allocations were sold within 4 weeks. I placed my order in 3rd week March of 2006. The car first became available for sale first week of March. I got the LAST available production slot at the 2nd largest BMW dealership in the country. EVERY SINGLE 2006 MZ4 Coupe had to be special ordered and was spoken for in less than 20 days. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

By November of 2006 BMW was putting a $10,000 trunk cash on every MZ4 Coupe on the dealership lot. Turns out, even though every BMW fanboi clamored for a light weight, stiff, bespoke ///M engine 2 seater, there really only is about 800-1,000 of them to be sold in the United States. Once the initial batch of people who wanted it bad bought it, there was zero interest from a wider public for such a specialized, niche car.

While the Corvette does have a much wider appeal than my MZ4 Coupe, and I am happy that at the end of the day only 4,000 were built in 3 years and 1,800 available for North America, making my car one of the rarest modern BMWs, I still don't think there's 50,000 people every year world wide clamoring for a mid engine 2 seater supercar, and that once the initial rush and onset is over, there'll be a glut of C8 Corvettes sitting on the lot at local Chevy dealerships.

Just like every single Corvette generation before it.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's meaningless as 2020 allocation is going to be for a very short year. Much like MY2018 there was a "shortage" of C7s when sales finally caught up to remaining inventory for the 3 months that the plant was shut down to accommodate for restructure.

From what I understand, the first customer vehicles won't be built until closer to December of this year, and if GM follows form, 2021 MY will start in August or September of 2020. That means there's only 9-10 months of production for 2020, and would likely create a shortfall for allocations.

Granted, IF their projection of 50,000 annual production is correct, that's still 30,000 C8 sold within the first 3 months of allocation becoming available. That's an incredible number and GM should be very proud and happy.

But just like my OTHER garage queen. The MZ4 Coupe, when it was announced in 2006, ALL available allocations were sold within 4 weeks. I placed my order in 3rd week March of 2006. The car first became available for sale first week of March. I got the LAST available production slot at the 2nd largest BMW dealership in the country. EVERY SINGLE 2006 MZ4 Coupe had to be special ordered and was spoken for in less than 20 days. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

By November of 2006 BMW was putting a $10,000 trunk cash on every MZ4 Coupe on the dealership lot. Turns out, even though every BMW fanboi clamored for a light weight, stiff, bespoke ///M engine 2 seater, there really only is about 800-1,000 of them to be sold in the United States. Once the initial batch of people who wanted it bad bought it, there was zero interest from a wider public for such a specialized, niche car.

While the Corvette does have a much wider appeal than my MZ4 Coupe, and I am happy that at the end of the day only 4,000 were built in 3 years and 1,800 available for North America, making my car one of the rarest modern BMWs, I still don't think there's 50,000 people every year world wide clamoring for a mid engine 2 seater supercar, and that once the initial rush and onset is over, there'll be a glut of C8 Corvettes sitting on the lot at local Chevy dealerships.

Just like every single Corvette generation before it.

You bought your C7 4 years after it was introduced in 2014. Everyone that really wanted a C7 already bought one. If someone doesn't want to wait 4 years for C8 inventory to catch up they'd be paying closer to MSRP.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by The HACK

If you're willing to wait, by this time next year you should be able to buy a C8 under MSRP.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by WestRace

Been hearing from a lot of people about the premature wear and tear of the seat leather. These cars are for show so they probably got a lot of people sitting in, but still it is a concern.

That's disgusting. How could they present a car like that? No one has enough pride in their product to simply clean the leather so it's not covered in brown grease/dirt?

[IllSic_Design]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

That's disgusting. How could they present a car like that? No one has enough pride in their product to simply clean the leather so it's not covered in brown grease/dirt?

I don't think that's grease/dirt. It looks like the color is rubbing off the leather IMO

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's meaningless as 2020 allocation is going to be for a very short year. Much like MY2018 there was a "shortage" of C7s when sales finally caught up to remaining inventory for the 3 months that the plant was shut down to accommodate for restructure.

From what I understand, the first customer vehicles won't be built until closer to December of this year, and if GM follows form, 2021 MY will start in August or September of 2020. That means there's only 9-10 months of production for 2020, and would likely create a shortfall for allocations.

Granted, IF their projection of 50,000 annual production is correct, that's still 30,000 C8 sold within the first 3 months of allocation becoming available. That's an incredible number and GM should be very proud and happy.

But just like my OTHER garage queen. The MZ4 Coupe, when it was announced in 2006, ALL available allocations were sold within 4 weeks. I placed my order in 3rd week March of 2006. The car first became available for sale first week of March. I got the LAST available production slot at the 2nd largest BMW dealership in the country. EVERY SINGLE 2006 MZ4 Coupe had to be special ordered and was spoken for in less than 20 days. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

By November of 2006 BMW was putting a $10,000 trunk cash on every MZ4 Coupe on the dealership lot. Turns out, even though every BMW fanboi clamored for a light weight, stiff, bespoke ///M engine 2 seater, there really only is about 800-1,000 of them to be sold in the United States. Once the initial batch of people who wanted it bad bought it, there was zero interest from a wider public for such a specialized, niche car.

While the Corvette does have a much wider appeal than my MZ4 Coupe, and I am happy that at the end of the day only 4,000 were built in 3 years and 1,800 available for North America, making my car one of the rarest modern BMWs, I still don't think there's 50,000 people every year world wide clamoring for a mid engine 2 seater supercar, and that once the initial rush and onset is over, there'll be a glut of C8 Corvettes sitting on the lot at local Chevy dealerships.

Just like every single Corvette generation before it.

The Z4MC struggled because it wasn't very... good. Assuming the C8 doesn't suffer that, I don't think it's a meaningful data point.

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by WestRace

Been hearing from a lot of people about the premature wear and tear of the seat leather. These cars are for show so they probably got a lot of people sitting in, but still it is a concern.

As you said, there are a TON of people in and out of these cars with zero concerns about the car because it's not theirs. BMW makes a very similar color interior as well. Yes, this is not a color of choice for many people due to the look of being dirty or seeing any imperfections.

Heck, when I visited the Ferrari museum a while back they had a Ferrari F50 in the museum on display. The car was used pretty hard and the driver seat looked absolutely trashed, and it was black leather.

I wouldn't be too concerned over this. The same manufacturer that makes high end interiors for hyper-exotics was tapped for the Corvette interior.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The Z4MC struggled because it wasn't very... good. Assuming the C8 doesn't suffer that, I don't think it's a meaningful data point.

That’s what the press will have you believe. The MZ4 Coupe is a phenomenal chassis mates to one of the greatest inline 6 engines ever built. It is every bit the E46 M3 CSL and then some. It’s 250 lbs lighter than your standard E46 M3, and 2.5x stiffer. The handling is razor sharp with an incredibly quick steering rack.

Unfortunately it was brutal to handle because of the shorter wheelbase and just unheard of quick and responsive steering. It may have been based on the E46 M3 drivetrain, but it didn’t drive like an E46 M3. The razor sharp handling is jarring to your average press monkey and unless you can delicately and precisely place it on the right line through a turn, the car punishes you for driving like a dumbass, but is incredibly rewarding when you get it right.

If you’ve never driven one, you should try it. It is next level good and the last true analog BMW. It is insanely good in the hands of a competent driver.

[NickyC]

If it's possible to pick up C7s cheap, I can't think of a better car for the money right now right? I mean they're absolutely fantastic cars, and the ability to still buy one in a 6MT is perfect. Might give those on the fence about getting a C8 without a 6MT a few years to see if they offer one in that variety?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That’s what the press will have you believe. The MZ4 Coupe is a phenomenal chassis mates to one of the greatest inline 6 engines ever built. It is every bit the E46 M3 CSL and then some. It’s 250 lbs lighter than your standard E46 M3, and 2.5x stiffer. The handling is razor sharp with an incredibly quick steering rack.

Unfortunately it was brutal to handle because of the shorter wheelbase and just unheard of quick and responsive steering. It may have been based on the E46 M3 drivetrain, but it didn’t drive like an E46 M3. The razor sharp handling is jarring to your average press monkey and unless you can delicately and precisely place it on the right line through a turn, the car punishes you for driving like a dumbass, but is incredibly rewarding when you get it right.

If you’ve never driven one, you should try it. It is next level good and the last true analog BMW. It is insanely good in the hands of a competent driver.

I've driven several. Some thoughts...
-it's actually around 60% stiffer than the e46 m3 (not 2.5x). M3: 19,500 nm/deg, Z4MC: 32,000 nm/deg. I suspect you were looking at non M e46 chassis stiffness numbers. The M3 has additional seam welds and chassis bracing
-comparing like to like (so a 6mt, no sunroof e46 coupe to a Z4M coupe), the weight difference is ~<100 lbs. Aka, nix the back seat in the M3 and you've made up most of the difference.
-the car is too stiff to handle properly. Instead of gripping the road, it skips along it. Jason Plato's (DTM driver-- pretty sure he should be competent enough for you) 5th gear review talks about this quite clearly
-this is compounded by: very limited aftermarket suspension options. The front suspension mounts differently than the M3 parts, so Z4MC specific parts are required. Since not many Z4MCs sold, there's no many aftermarket options on the market to correct the stock failing. Those that do exist are compromised-- e.g. the TCK setup is e36 front shocks, which require you to run them quite high for functional amounts of bump travel
-similarly, the ecu is unique, so very limited support compared to MSS54(HP). People routinely get 420-450 crank hp out of the S54 with bolt ons on the M3. Z4MC, same engine... not so much
-the rack is, imo, too fast. Then again, dislike the speed change from moving my M3's rack from 15.4:1 to 14.5:1 (which I did because the ZHP rack I installed is the more feelsome rack that can be installed in the chassis). Being twitchy isn't beneficial-- being able to smoothly dial in precise amounts of steering is. The best possible rack, IMO, is the slowest rack you can get that doesn't require you to shuffle steer or cross your hands on track/back roads... and the Z4MC rack is way, WAY faster than that. Never was I tempted to install the Z4MC's 12.8:1 rack when I was doing the swap
-the hood is pointlessly long, for the sake of being long. This makes the car harder to place. This is, relevantly to the topic of the thread, also why I was never really tempted by any Corvette's prior to the C8. That presentation on the C8 video really spoke to me when they were talking about the improved visibility and placeability of the C8 vs the C7.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I've driven several. Some thoughts...
-it's actually around 60% stiffer than the e46 m3 (not 2.5x). M3: 19,500 nm/deg, Z4MC: 32,000 nm/deg. I suspect you were looking at non M e46 chassis stiffness numbers. The M3 has additional seam welds and chassis bracing
-comparing like to like (so a 6mt, no sunroof e46 coupe to a Z4M coupe), the weight difference is ~<100 lbs. Aka, nix the back seat in the M3 and you've made up most of the difference.
-the car is too stiff to handle properly. Instead of gripping the road, it skips along it. Jason Plato's (DTM driver-- pretty sure he should be competent enough for you) 5th gear review talks about this quite clearly
-this is compounded by: very limited aftermarket suspension options. The front suspension mounts differently than the M3 parts, so Z4MC specific parts are required. Since not many Z4MCs sold, there's no many aftermarket options on the market to correct the stock failing. Those that do exist are compromised-- e.g. the TCK setup is e36 front shocks, which require you to run them quite high for functional amounts of bump travel
-similarly, the ecu is unique, so very limited support compared to MSS54(HP). People routinely get 420-450 crank hp out of the S54 with bolt ons on the M3. Z4MC, same engine... not so much
-the rack is, imo, too fast. Then again, dislike the speed change from moving my M3's rack from 15.4:1 to 14.5:1 (which I did because the ZHP rack I installed is the more feelsome rack that can be installed in the chassis). Being twitchy isn't beneficial-- being able to smoothly dial in precise amounts of steering is. The best possible rack, IMO, is the slowest rack you can get that doesn't require you to shuffle steer or cross your hands on track/back roads... and the Z4MC rack is way, WAY faster than that. Never was I tempted to install the Z4MC's 12.8:1 rack when I was doing the swap
-the hood is pointlessly long, for the sake of being long. This makes the car harder to place. This is, relevantly to the topic of the thread, also why I was never really tempted by any Corvette's prior to the C8. That presentation on the C8 video really spoke to me when they were talking about the improved visibility and placeability of the C8 vs the C7.

I don't often agree with your average internet poster, but you're actually dead on with regard to most of your personal observations. Bravo, so you HAVE driven the MZ4 Coupe instead of just regurgitation what others have said. Thank you for being an informed poster.

The super stiff chassis actually responded extremely well to stickier tires. The MZ4 Coupe was saddled with the 2nd generation ContiSportContacts and they're average at best. All that jitteriness goes away once you put, say, a Michelin Pilot Super Sport or Nitto NT-01 on the car. Very few car transforms and responds so incredibly well to a simple tire change, and this car does it insanely well to my experience. At one point, my track buddy in a new F30 340i was amazed at how quickly I'd pull away in some of the twisty sections of a local track.

It's true due to the ECU difference, options for more power on the S54 in the MZ4 Coupe is no where near as well developed (in fact, it's non-existing) as the E46. If you're after power from this chassis, short of an engine transplant, you're not getting it. Then again, I don't think it NEEDS more power.

There's plenty of chassis support for the car though. All the upper end custom dampers like Öhlins, JRZ, Moton, MCS...etc, they all can make you a set of dampers and springs combo to fit this car. Even remote 3 way shocks. Getting top end aftermarket support isn't an issue. On the consumer and lower end, yeah, choices are more limited, but still, you have companies like Ground Control, Bilstein, and KW supplying enough to cover most of the gaps.

The rack does take some getting used to. I recall letting the same track buddy drive my car and he nearly drove it off of a twisty mountain road on the first turn. After that it was "omg holy sh*t" every turn, not because steering is bad, but he was having cargasms with how responsive it is. So far I've yet to drive a modern BMW that gives the same sort of feedback and feel that this car does. Not even the E36 M3, which is lauded to have one of the best BMW racks of all times. It's not twitchy at all. It's insanely precise is how I'd describe it. There's zero dead feel on center, move it a hundredth of a degree off center and the front end responds. It is incredible. Nothing short of exotics is even remotely close to it. Whenever I swap back from the Corvette to the MZ4 or vice versa, I'm always amazed at how insanely good this car is, and to a man most journals agree that the C7 actually has one of the best implementation of a modern EPS rack, and it freakin' PALES in comparison to the MZ4 Coupe.

But it is incredibly short and quick. I'm not going to lie. It DOES take some getting used to. The only car(s) I've ever driven on track that rivals it in feel and responsiveness is a Lotus Exige 240S. For reals.

And that car is just a go-kart waiting to spin you into the nearest wall, but OMG. OMFG. The Exile S is on a totally different level of car. That thing is the essence of a car designed by engineers that gave zero f**ks. The mandate for that car appears to be, we're going to make the greatest driver's car ever known to man, comfort be damned.

Last thing I will add, is you don't need to see the front end to know where you're placing the car. Performance driving on track, outside of your fundamental "vision" exercises, is all about feel. I have far more trouble placing the Corvette C7 not because of its long hood (by comparison, the hood on the Corvette C7 is SHORT) but because the EPS steering doesn't give the same sort of feedback the servotronic hydraulic steering on the MZ4 Coupe does. The tactile feeling of the steering on the MZ4 Coupe actually lets me know how much weight is on each individual tire and where my contact patch is at all times. It's weird. Once you know what to sense and feel for, the steering on the MZ4 Coupe tells you EVERYTHING.

Now, if you want to circle back, and say that the MZ4 Coupe was a sales FAILURE because it does not have mass appeal? That is absolutely true. The MZ4 Coupe didn't sell, not because it isn't a good car. It didn't sell because it is too damn good car and frankly, not many people wanted a BMW THIS driver oriented.

Which brings me back to my original point. There simply isn't enough of a mass appeal across the entire gamut for them to justify 2x C7 sales (that'd be 70,000 units per year). In fact, if the sports car market is anything to go by the last 5 years, 50K is optimistic for the overall market of the $50K and above target. Based on that projection, by this time next year, there'll probably be plenty of C8 Corvettes on the lot if they're doubling production from C7 production levels IMO.

Which isn't to say that it won't appeal to plenty. Heck if I didn't buy a Corvette just last year, I'd be seriously tempted too, as I've said multiple times. But if I'm really ANY good at what I do for a living, I suspect my projections are pretty solid.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by NickyC

If it's possible to pick up C7s cheap, I can't think of a better car for the money right now right? I mean they're absolutely fantastic cars, and the ability to still buy one in a 6MT is perfect. Might give those on the fence about getting a C8 without a 6MT a few years to see if they offer one in that variety?

7 MT.

Problem is production has already ceased, and manual inventory is dwindling FAST. I think I read somewhere that even though the take rate is about 25% manuals on the C7, the dealership order rate is along the lines of about 10% or less. Virtually ALL the 7 MTs that I know of within my circle (I actually only know 2 other C7 drivers with 7 MTs personally) were special orders. No dealer would knowingly order a manual unless they know they had a customer lined up already.

So even now, deals may be easy to come by, but if you want a manual, you may have to settle for a color not of your choosing, or options not entirely aligned to your taste, from a dealership hundreds of miles away. I lucked out the 7 MT on the lot that I picked up last year, the ONLY manual at the dealership, had Z07 and the 3LT trim (fully optioned out). But it's in white, which worked in my favor in that the Missus likes white cars, but I wanted one in blue, and there was only 1 blue 7 MT GS within a 500 mile radius.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by NickyC

If it's possible to pick up C7s cheap, I can't think of a better car for the money right now right? I mean they're absolutely fantastic cars, and the ability to still buy one in a 6MT is perfect. Might give those on the fence about getting a C8 without a 6MT a few years to see if they offer one in that variety?

You’re not giving up anything getting a C7. Still modern, high quality and powerful. Kind of like deciding to buy a 991.2 instead of a 992.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by The HACK

7 MT.

Problem is production has already ceased, and manual inventory is dwindling FAST. I think I read somewhere that even though the take rate is about 25% manuals on the C7, the dealership order rate is along the lines of about 10% or less. Virtually ALL the 7 MTs that I know of within my circle (I actually only know 2 other C7 drivers with 7 MTs personally) were special orders. No dealer would knowingly order a manual unless they know they had a customer lined up already.

So even now, deals may be easy to come by, but if you want a manual, you may have to settle for a color not of your choosing, or options not entirely aligned to your taste, from a dealership hundreds of miles away. I lucked out the 7 MT on the lot that I picked up last year, the ONLY manual at the dealership, had Z07 and the 3LT trim (fully optioned out). But it's in white, which worked in my favor in that the Missus likes white cars, but I wanted one in blue, and there was only 1 blue 7 MT GS within a 500 mile radius.

Hah, no kidding! I never knew it was a 7MT, nice!

[10"]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's meaningless as 2020 allocation is going to be for a very short year. Much like MY2018 there was a "shortage" of C7s when sales finally caught up to remaining inventory for the 3 months that the plant was shut down to accommodate for restructure.

From what I understand, the first customer vehicles won't be built until closer to December of this year, and if GM follows form, 2021 MY will start in August or September of 2020. That means there's only 9-10 months of production for 2020, and would likely create a shortfall for allocations.

Granted, IF their projection of 50,000 annual production is correct, that's still 30,000 C8 sold within the first 3 months of allocation becoming available. That's an incredible number and GM should be very proud and happy.

But just like my OTHER garage queen. The MZ4 Coupe, when it was announced in 2006, ALL available allocations were sold within 4 weeks. I placed my order in 3rd week March of 2006. The car first became available for sale first week of March. I got the LAST available production slot at the 2nd largest BMW dealership in the country. EVERY SINGLE 2006 MZ4 Coupe had to be special ordered and was spoken for in less than 20 days. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

By November of 2006 BMW was putting a $10,000 trunk cash on every MZ4 Coupe on the dealership lot. Turns out, even though every BMW fanboi clamored for a light weight, stiff, bespoke ///M engine 2 seater, there really only is about 800-1,000 of them to be sold in the United States. Once the initial batch of people who wanted it bad bought it, there was zero interest from a wider public for such a specialized, niche car.

While the Corvette does have a much wider appeal than my MZ4 Coupe, and I am happy that at the end of the day only 4,000 were built in 3 years and 1,800 available for North America, making my car one of the rarest modern BMWs, I still don't think there's 50,000 people every year world wide clamoring for a mid engine 2 seater supercar, and that once the initial rush and onset is over, there'll be a glut of C8 Corvettes sitting on the lot at local Chevy dealerships.

Just like every single Corvette generation before it.

totally!! I got offered 2 (TWO) different Z4M Coupes for massive discounts back in 2007. Both brand new. They were still unsold for months and months. Got offered one for $32k and another for $35k. I was totall SHOCKED!!!! i couldn't afford that much then but i was desperately trying to buy one!! lol.

As for Corvettes.....as someone born and raised in Detroit----there are always loads of Corvettes unsold sitting around with massive discounts. The C8 will be no different....easy $15k off sticker after a couple of years. Every generation has been the same.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 10"

As for Corvettes.....as someone born and raised in Detroit----there are always loads of Corvettes unsold sitting around with massive discounts. The C8 will be no different....easy $15k off sticker after a couple of years. Every generation has been the same.

I'm giving away my age.

When the C7 first came out, there was some buzz and like every generation of Corvette before it, there's a huge swath of die-hard Corvette owners that put deposits down, sight unseen. There's also a lot of buzz about how the C7 was a dramatic departure from previous generation Corvette in that the rear of the car shares none of the past generation Corvette features (cough *SQUARE LIGHTS* cough). It was controversial for sure, and the C7 never got off the ground like gangbusters the C6 was (note, C6 sales never dropped below 20K units per year!).

The C7 was half way between the revolutionary change that the C8 is, and the evolutionary change that the C6 was. BUT, despite the controversial rear end, the C7 AVERAGED out to have one of the highest units sold per year average of all Corvettes of all time (at least someone with the most recent sales figure has said this, I can't independently verify).

So far, the C8 has managed to capture existing Corvette owner's fancy, without alienating a large percentage because the C7 soften the blows of the dramatic, radically different design. And IF the dramatic departure manages to capture more non-Corvette fans than C7 did, I suspect the sales numbers of the C8 would be closer to what GM hoped it would be, and that unlike Corvettes of prior generation, that buzz may well continue on to MY 2021.

If we're to go by the general public's interest in the car, I suspect it WILL convert a fair share of non Corvette owners. I still think the 2 seater sports car market is way WAY lower than what GM estimated it to be, hence I think it'll be a commercial success, but also, in 12-18 months plenty of C8 will be on lots to be had at or below MSRP...Because that's ALWAYS been GM's business practice. They'll pump out 50K cars even though the market can only sell 40K, and let the dealerships discount it to "move inventory."

[Obioban]

^sounds great as someone looking to buy a 3rd year of production car

[3798j]

Originally Posted by The HACK

...(note, C6 sales never dropped below 20K units per year!)...

Something's off...two different sites listing Corvette production numbers by years don't agree with you (although their numbers don't exactly agree either).

C6 2013 13,466
C6 2012 11,647
C6 2011 13,596
C6 2010 12,194
C6 2009 16,956
C6 2008 35,310
C6 2007 40,561
C6 2006 34,021
C6 2005 37,372

https://vette-vues.com/total-corvett...s-model-years/
https://vette-vues.com/total-corvett...s-model-years/

Regardless, if one looks at the first three year production numbers for C4 (126,385), C5 (100,634), C6 (103,888), and C7 (98,163), it's easy to believe early C8 numbers will be good.

[clee1982]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I don't often agree with your average internet poster, but you're actually dead on with regard to most of your personal observations. Bravo, so you HAVE driven the MZ4 Coupe instead of just regurgitation what others have said. Thank you for being an informed poster.

The super stiff chassis actually responded extremely well to stickier tires. The MZ4 Coupe was saddled with the 2nd generation ContiSportContacts and they're average at best. All that jitteriness goes away once you put, say, a Michelin Pilot Super Sport or Nitto NT-01 on the car. Very few car transforms and responds so incredibly well to a simple tire change, and this car does it insanely well to my experience. At one point, my track buddy in a new F30 340i was amazed at how quickly I'd pull away in some of the twisty sections of a local track.

It's true due to the ECU difference, options for more power on the S54 in the MZ4 Coupe is no where near as well developed (in fact, it's non-existing) as the E46. If you're after power from this chassis, short of an engine transplant, you're not getting it. Then again, I don't think it NEEDS more power.

There's plenty of chassis support for the car though. All the upper end custom dampers like Öhlins, JRZ, Moton, MCS...etc, they all can make you a set of dampers and springs combo to fit this car. Even remote 3 way shocks. Getting top end aftermarket support isn't an issue. On the consumer and lower end, yeah, choices are more limited, but still, you have companies like Ground Control, Bilstein, and KW supplying enough to cover most of the gaps.

The rack does take some getting used to. I recall letting the same track buddy drive my car and he nearly drove it off of a twisty mountain road on the first turn. After that it was "omg holy sh*t" every turn, not because steering is bad, but he was having cargasms with how responsive it is. So far I've yet to drive a modern BMW that gives the same sort of feedback and feel that this car does. Not even the E36 M3, which is lauded to have one of the best BMW racks of all times. It's not twitchy at all. It's insanely precise is how I'd describe it. There's zero dead feel on center, move it a hundredth of a degree off center and the front end responds. It is incredible. Nothing short of exotics is even remotely close to it. Whenever I swap back from the Corvette to the MZ4 or vice versa, I'm always amazed at how insanely good this car is, and to a man most journals agree that the C7 actually has one of the best implementation of a modern EPS rack, and it freakin' PALES in comparison to the MZ4 Coupe.

But it is incredibly short and quick. I'm not going to lie. It DOES take some getting used to. The only car(s) I've ever driven on track that rivals it in feel and responsiveness is a Lotus Exige 240S. For reals.

And that car is just a go-kart waiting to spin you into the nearest wall, but OMG. OMFG. The Exile S is on a totally different level of car. That thing is the essence of a car designed by engineers that gave zero f**ks. The mandate for that car appears to be, we're going to make the greatest driver's car ever known to man, comfort be damned.

Last thing I will add, is you don't need to see the front end to know where you're placing the car. Performance driving on track, outside of your fundamental "vision" exercises, is all about feel. I have far more trouble placing the Corvette C7 not because of its long hood (by comparison, the hood on the Corvette C7 is SHORT) but because the EPS steering doesn't give the same sort of feedback the servotronic hydraulic steering on the MZ4 Coupe does. The tactile feeling of the steering on the MZ4 Coupe actually lets me know how much weight is on each individual tire and where my contact patch is at all times. It's weird. Once you know what to sense and feel for, the steering on the MZ4 Coupe tells you EVERYTHING.

Now, if you want to circle back, and say that the MZ4 Coupe was a sales FAILURE because it does not have mass appeal? That is absolutely true. The MZ4 Coupe didn't sell, not because it isn't a good car. It didn't sell because it is too damn good car and frankly, not many people wanted a BMW THIS driver oriented.

Which brings me back to my original point. There simply isn't enough of a mass appeal across the entire gamut for them to justify 2x C7 sales (that'd be 70,000 units per year). In fact, if the sports car market is anything to go by the last 5 years, 50K is optimistic for the overall market of the $50K and above target. Based on that projection, by this time next year, there'll probably be plenty of C8 Corvettes on the lot if they're doubling production from C7 production levels IMO.

Which isn't to say that it won't appeal to plenty. Heck if I didn't buy a Corvette just last year, I'd be seriously tempted too, as I've said multiple times. But if I'm really ANY good at what I do for a living, I suspect my projections are pretty solid.

makes me want to drive a MZ4 some day...

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Something's off...two different sites listing Corvette production numbers by years don't agree with you (although their numbers don't exactly agree either).

C6 2013 13,466
C6 2012 11,647
C6 2011 13,596
C6 2010 12,194
C6 2009 16,956
C6 2008 35,310
C6 2007 40,561
C6 2006 34,021
C6 2005 37,372

https://vette-vues.com/total-corvett...s-model-years/
https://vette-vues.com/total-corvett...s-model-years/

Regardless, if one looks at the first three year production numbers for C4 (126,385), C5 (100,634), C6 (103,888), and C7 (98,163), it's easy to believe early C8 numbers will be good.

C5, not C6. Finger slipped. Don't know what I was thinking.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales...olet-corvette/

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Obioban

^sounds great as someone looking to buy a 3rd year of production car

Also that's when the Z06es come out, and you're going to get a glut of the early adapters selling their fully loaded Z51 C8s with 3,000 miles for 1/2 what they paid for to get the Z06.

Gives us an opportunity to see how the GM's DCT and e-boost brakes work too. I am pretty sure the used car market is going to be saturated by year 3 and a good, used C8 with low miles would be a better buy than a first year production run C8.