BMW management will skip Paris show to strategize on electric car impasse

[Fundguy1]

The tesla hype I think is just that. Hype. Let's see how many are actually delivered. Even then, it's still a seriously small percentage of cars sold and it's doubtful after the first wave of preorders sales continue at any appreciable pace.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Please give me the address of the dealer so I can refer our investigations department to investigate this vehicle As the i3 certainly does not creak and rattle, at least in Germany.

Advantage BMW, Houston.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

The tesla hype I think is just that. Hype. Let's see how many are actually delivered. Even then, it's still a seriously small percentage of cars sold and it's doubtful after the first wave of preorders sales continue at any appreciable pace.

It may be a small percentage of all cars sold worlwide, but it's an increasingly larger percentage of BMW's market. The pace of EV sales will increase with the reduction in battery costs. If BMW continues to delay investment in this area, they will suffer the consequences.

[Teutonic]

I wouldn't call i3 ugly. I think is cute for the dimensions. It is different than what we are used to but not ugly. it is just not enough car for the money asked, and is -like all electric- limited due to the "charging leash".

Tesla on the other hand, it is UGLY. I have looked inside out and the interior makes me puke anytime I look at it. What is the hype about? maybe the same run for the image of green that Prius pushed years back.
That screen on a plain dashboard is the most fade, simple and boring design I have ever seen. A polarizing design is one thing, a glued screen in center is another.
I also checked the fit and finish of this Tesla and realized how "well" built is with rubber door seals that are installed with double sided tape on some metal lips on the corners. It did not last more than a month on this mall environment where people did nothing than looking at the vehicle. Cheap doors, cheap materials, ugly design...
And at the end, the price. The cost that it doesn't reflect anywhere, from any angle. Musk, (an arrogant prick) did it well: there are so many that will pay my premium price, for a non-premium vehicle.

It make me laugh when I hear the word "progress" in a Tesla sentence. What an ignorant statement. It is a battery with an electric motor. Welcome to the 19th century! What a progress we have made...

A better world? Who? Tesla? How?
Electric?
Ignorance again?
We pollute more to build an electric car. Electric energy does not come from the air, so we pollute differently. Batteries require a very well and firm recycling system. Everyone is sure that they will not end up in the landfill?
Did I mentioned the EMF field that are approved "within normal limits" backed by your government? Do you feel good about it? Good for you!

Go ahead and buy that non freedom, plug dependent, range limited, non healthy box. I will happy stick with my gas engine reliable car that will be there ready to go after 2-3 months left on the corner of the forest.
The more Tesla's on the street the better I feel.

Be patient, wait for the wireless power plug...

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

It may be a small percentage of all cars sold worlwide, but it's an increasingly larger percentage of BMW's market. The pace of EV sales will increase with the reduction in battery costs. If BMW continues to delay investment in this area, they will suffer the consequences.

It's 0.4% of worldwide sales. BMW sold 4.5 mm cars worldwide from 1/2014-q1/2016. They sold 24,000 i3 during that time. That's 0.005% of total sales. Fail. Let someone else spend the capital on research like Toyota did with hybrids. Then when it's perfected, which is still years away, implement it into cars that are better because they have the bmw touch. I wonder how many sales bmw lost because all that research money was spent on ev junk and the ultimate driving machine is now just another option as a result.

[E60MKF]

If the i3 wasn't so unconventional looking and had a 150mile range (minimum) maybe we would have got somewhere with it... Nice interior but the looks are ones a mother couldn't even like

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by E60MKF

If the i3 wasn't so unconventional looking and had a 150mile range (minimum) maybe we would have got somewhere with it... Nice interior but the looks are ones a mother couldn't even like

Might have even reached 0.4% of BMW sales. Lol.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Tracus

I wouldn't call i3 ugly. I think is cute for the dimensions. It is different than what we are used to but not ugly. it is just not enough car for the money asked, and is -like all electric- limited due to the "charging leash".

Tesla on the other hand, it is UGLY. I have looked inside out and the interior makes me puke anytime I look at it. What is the hype about? maybe the same run for the image of green that Prius pushed years back.
That screen on a plain dashboard is the most fade, simple and boring design I have ever seen. A polarizing design is one thing, a glued screen in center is another.
I also checked the fit and finish of this Tesla and realized how "well" built is with rubber door seals that are installed with double sided tape on some metal lips on the corners. It did not last more than a month on this mall environment where people did nothing than looking at the vehicle. Cheap doors, cheap materials, ugly design...
And at the end, the price. The cost that it doesn't reflect anywhere, from any angle. Musk, (an arrogant prick) did it well: there are so many that will pay my premium price, for a non-premium vehicle.

It make me laugh when I hear the word "progress" in a Tesla sentence. What an ignorant statement. It is a battery with an electric motor. Welcome to the 19th century! What a progress we have made...

A better world? Who? Tesla? How?
Electric?
Ignorance again?
We pollute more to build an electric car. Electric energy does not come from the air, so we pollute differently. Batteries require a very well and firm recycling system. Everyone is sure that they will not end up in the landfill?
Did I mentioned the EMF field that are approved "within normal limits" backed by your government? Do you feel good about it? Good for you!

Go ahead and buy that non freedom, plug dependent, range limited, non healthy box. I will happy stick with my gas engine reliable car that will be there ready to go after 2-3 months left on the corner of the forest.
The more Tesla's on the street the better I feel.

Be patient, wait for the wireless power plug...

Fossil fuel is a finite resource. What do you suggest?

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

It's 0.4% of worldwide sales. BMW sold 4.5 mm cars worldwide from 1/2014-q1/2016. They sold 24,000 i3 during that time. That's 0.005% of total sales. Fail. Let someone else spend the capital on research like Toyota did with hybrids. Then when it's perfected, which is still years away, implement it into cars that are better because they have the bmw touch. I wonder how many sales bmw lost because all that research money was spent on ev junk and the ultimate driving machine is now just another option as a result.

The thing is, EV domination of the car market is ultimately not an IF, but a WHEN. So when does BMW want to be a serious player and what are the consequences of ignoring R&D? The current EV shortcomings of range, charge rate, thermal management and weight are undergoing constant improvement which, at some point will have EVs surpassing ICE tech in both cost and capability.

Some of those current EV shortcomings are performance related, such as weight and thermal management, and are going to take the industry much longer than others to significantly improve. In the short term, no EV will be cost-competitive, performance-wise, in the stamina or handling area. As such, it seems that BMW's strategy focus for continued ICE production, in the longer term, should mainly be related to performance models.

And you obviously can't let competitors do all the research as you'll be paying them licensing fees and incurring extra component costs due to not having the manufacturing tech in house.

[Fundguy1]

Zenmaster, that's an opinion, not a fact. Markets will dictate that. Oil prices will dictate that. The technology will dictate that. You can't say combustion cars haven't also been nor will the y stop to continue to advance. Compare the family sedan of the mid 80s to one today. Ev need to not only become equals to today's tech. They need to become equals to tomorrow's tech too. And also need to become economically and feature wise preferable to the combustion cars of tomorrow to have a meaningful impact. I don't see that for decades or more nor do I see corporations willing to pay huge sums for decades to bet it happens. There is no guarentee batteries will someday be higher capacity, cheap, enviromentally friendly, reliable, and fast charging. Its speculation. And all theset things and others need to happen to make that a reality. 15 yrs ago everyone was betting on fuel cells. The speculation was they would be the dominant fuel source by now. The outlook was the tech would be perfected a decade ago. I don't see any. Do you?

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Zenmaster, that's an opinion, not a fact. Markets will dictate that. Oil prices will dictate that. The technology will dictate that. You can't say combustion cars haven't also been nor will the y stop to continue to advance. Compare the family sedan of the mid 80s to one today. Ev need to not only become equals to today's tech. They need to become equals to tomorrow's tech too. And also need to become economically and feature wise preferable to the combustion cars of tomorrow to have a meaningful impact. I don't see that for decades or more nor do I see corporations willing to pay huge sums for decades to bet it happens. There is no guarentee batteries will someday be higher capacity, cheap, enviromentally friendly, reliable, and fast charging. Its speculation. And all theset things and others need to happen to make that a reality. 15 yrs ago everyone was betting on fuel cells. The speculation was they would be the dominant fuel source by now. The outlook was the tech would be perfected a decade ago. I don't see any. Do you?

Yes. Even if somehow there were zero technological advances in EV, the manufacturing technologies alone would achieve cost parity with ICE. Battery production simply scales well. But, in additional to production advances there are technological advances in battery materials and chemistry. There is no guarantee that higher capacity (energy density) will continue to improve, but such industry stagnation would have to somehow be the safe bet in order for an auto manufacturer to ignore EV R&D, right? I wouldn't take such a bet with my company. Since the trend is in fact a steady improvement, the prudent thing to do would be to put more investment in the "i" program.

http://insideevs.com/electric-cars-t...thin-a-decade/

[ORIGIN M.]

Actually, BMW is behind now because they completely lost momentum.

"If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready"

-Will Smith

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

BMW is smart to hold off. Tesla has yet to deliver the smaller sedan so who knows how it will sell without the crazy tax credits.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by conradb

lol so many butthurt BMW fanbois ripping on Tesla for "not making a dime."

Amazon didn't make a dime until just recently.

Amazon was overhyped initially but their business model is sound because they don't rely on Govt mandates or taxpayer support unlike Tesla.

I'll tell you what will put Tesla and other EV cars over the hump.

They must have high efficiency solar panels integrated into the roof of the vehicle.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Yes. Even if somehow there were zero technological advances in EV, the manufacturing technologies alone would achieve cost parity with ICE. Battery production simply scales well. But, in additional to production advances there are technological advances in battery materials and chemistry. There is no guarantee that higher capacity (energy density) will continue to improve, but such industry stagnation would have to somehow be the safe bet in order for an auto manufacturer to ignore EV R&D, right? I wouldn't take such a bet with my company. Since the trend is in fact a steady improvement, the prudent thing to do would be to put more investment in the "i" program.

http://insideevs.com/electric-cars-t...thin-a-decade/

Pouring more resources to the i division doesn't seem at all prudent when the most important thing is missing... Sales.

[ORIGIN M.]

You need an eye exam !

Originally Posted by -c-

Dude gotta be honest !

The new Prius makes the i3 look like design of the year!

It's got one of the ugliest asses in recent history!

[Fundguy1]

It's ok. Tesla will loose their subsidies come January thank god.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

You need an eye exam !

Common red! Are you serious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a mess of lines.

I know it's subjective but that's one nasty ass for a car either way your entitled to your opinion but damn !

[-c-]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Pouring more resources to the i division doesn't seem at all prudent when the most important thing is missing... Sales.

Also the supplier is Samsung so technically their the ones pouring resources into the battery tech not BMW. BMW however gets to pay to use it under whatever agreement they agreed upon when the project started.

These batteries are used elsewhere not just in the i3 so it will improve even if BMW doesn't care.

Standard supplier, OE relationship.

Our suppliers are always working on bettering their technology and trying to make us buy it. Weather we do or not is up to us since we are the OE but if it was preparatory and BMW designed it only worked in the i3 then it be different.

I also read that theirs a better battery coming in 2019 that will get the car over 200+ miles.

Hey upgradability is great, having a car that will never rust or corrode is also a big win.

[Fundguy1]

I'm with -c-. You gotta dig back to the pontiac Aztec for something uglier to me. Hemp dash? Really?

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I'm with -c-. You gotta dig back to the pontiac Aztec for something uglier to me. Hemp dash? Really?

The funny thing is the management responsible for the Azteck historically is responsible for some of the greatest looking cars from GM, ahhhhh the stories, my boss was at GM at the time and saw the whole mess take fold, let's just say wayyyyy to many cooks in the kitchen and everyone wanted to make a contribution, turned it into a turd.

Oh well.

Do I think the i3 is the new Azteck, theirs no way, theirs tons of much worse executed cars today but even they fail to live up to the standards of the Azteck. That was just a mess.

Heck has anybody seen the Lexus F headlight!
The things a mess and looks like the car got sucker punched in the eye. Hey Nike wants their swoosh back! That is a subjective opinion of mine and All in all design is subjective and if your going to bash a car base it off its technical achievements at least that is more or less factual design elements that can be tested and hold its own. It's hard to argue the benefits of carbon fiber vs steel, a headlight design or windshield angle can be disputed till the cows come home.

I hold over 30 design patents of my own and it means nothing because since I'm a car designer myself I live in a world where everything is based of emotion, their no real right or wrong way to style a car, what is beautiful for some are hideous to others, when I'm out with the guys and their telling me to look over at some women they think is the hottest thing they have seen in recent memory I look and am like eh ok, it doesn't mean she's ugly just not my type, I hate curly hair some men love it! Doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's an argument that will never be won. Hence my argument to challenge a car based off its elements of what it's made of vs. the Looks, then you have a good argument.

But yea we're all visual creatures so at the end of they day theirs a Prius that sells well but looks like a well whatever doesn't get me going. So you can't say if BMW designed it better they would sell more !

BMW doesn't try to sell the car they don't run commercials and it's not cheap. I can't tell you how many people have no clue what the car is. And some people think it's an Asian make before seeing the badge. The marketing of the car really needs work. Tesla markets theirs cars sooooo much better.

The model 3 is being made of steel not aluminum to keep its cost down, musk has stated this, if the i3 was 10k dollars cheaper and had a range of 200+ miles we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But at that price point I beg to wonder if it would have been made of all carbon and aluminum. All of which are premium materials. The Germans gave the people the range of what their data showed the average user commuted in an average day. They didn't seem to count on the people just wanting that ICE range that their used to, like driving with a quarter tank all the time. Not a smart move that has costed them.
With the battery tech improving they will have the 200 mile range before 2020.

But alas I still love reading everyone's opinion on how hideous the i3 is, like it means anything.

[Fundguy1]

Yeah, Aztec was hideous. Too many cooks. But since then as an overall design, i3 is one of the worst. Designed to appeal to a stoned tree hugger from Norway I guess.

I do have personal experience with ugly cars. My first car was a hideous hand down. A 1976 white Mustang II with Navy interior, auto, 4 cylinder, and a hatchback. Gave you nausea looking at it and it made one or Car and Driver's ten worst looking car lists.
http://fordofwestmemphis.blogspot.co...tangs.html?m=1

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Yeah, Aztec was hideous. Too many cooks. But since then as an overall design, i3 is one of the worst. Designed to appeal to a stoned tree hugger from Norway I guess.

I do have personal experience with ugly cars. My first car was a hideous hand down. A 1976 white Mustang II with Navy interior, auto, 4 cylinder, and a hatchback. Gave you nausea looking at it and it made one or Car and Driver's ten worst looking car lists.

Lol remember this guy!!! That was a stinker! My old roommate had one and was always ridiculed while driving it lol.

I'm sticking to my guns and Still think the i3 looks ahead of its time and very forward thinking. Probably why many feel cold to it people tend to shun the radically different, history has shown this. But time will tell.

When I first saw the i3 and i8 I was amazed they took such a leap from the norm, and made a design statement. Just some of the details I really enjoyed, it was something deleting from the norm and was fresh air.

And I'm not a stoned tree hugger from Norway . My 700hp car in the garage confirms this. Burn that Dino juice baby! I Just like all forms of automotive propulsion.