Top Gear - BMW M cars: the hits and the misses

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Here's the thing about the S55: It does seem less thrilling and pure than the NA V8 it replaced, but once the S58 powered M3 and M4 come out people will start throwing shade at it saying "it's all about easy power, why did BMW have to lower the redline and make it less about the experience and more about instant torque?" and then the successor to the S58 will come out and people will suddenly start looking at the S58 and thinking "Well now we have an M3 that redlines at 6500 RPM, man the S58 was such a characterful and awesome engine!" And then the successor to that will come out and it will be electric and everyone will say "Awww man! Remember the previous gasoline powered engine? That thing was a peach!"

The S58 is very similar to the S55. It has all the same strengths (power, cooling, reliability) and fixed some of the weaknesses (crank hub, slightly improved sound) but its by no means compares to the change from a naturally aspirated S65 to forced induction S55. I'd be surprised if the S55 is eulogized, its effective but dull. Drive an E90 M3 back to back with an M2C, the M2C is numb and lacking soul by comparison and its literally the best BMW can cough up in this generation. I was sorely disappointed with mine for that reason (despite the fantastic chassis, diff, electronics) but perhaps I was expecting too much.

And sure, any ICE engine compared to an electric appliance is going to be more interesting. But the feel and sound of a naturally aspirated big displacement engine beats turbos every time for driving enjoyment. For a daily driver don't get me wrong, turbos are great. The B48 in my 3 series is very impressive, torquey, responsive, refined, easy on fuel. Some folks will disagree on turbos muting the modern performance car experience and I understand that POV too. Certainly I applaud that BMW still make manual transmission 4 seater cars and they haven't lost that track on Sunday, take the kids to school on Monday appeal.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The S58 is very similar to the S55. It has all the same strengths (power, cooling, reliability) and fixed some of the weaknesses (crank hub, slightly improved sound) but its by no means compares to the change from a naturally aspirated S65 to forced induction S55. I'd be surprised if the S55 is eulogized, its effective but dull. Drive an E90 M3 back to back with an M2C, the M2C is numb and lacking soul by comparison and its literally the best BMW can cough up in this generation. I was sorely disappointed with mine for that reason (despite the fantastic chassis, diff, electronics) but perhaps I was expecting too much.

And sure, any ICE engine compared to an electric appliance is going to be more interesting. But the feel and sound of a naturally aspirated big displacement engine beats turbos every time for driving enjoyment. For a daily driver don't get me wrong, turbos are great. The B48 in my 3 series is very impressive, torquey, responsive, refined, easy on fuel. Some folks will disagree on turbos muting the modern performance car experience and I understand that POV too. Certainly I applaud that BMW still make manual transmission 4 seater cars and they haven't lost that track on Sunday, take the kids to school on Monday appeal.

The problem is now it's with ugly cars

[adc]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The S58 is very similar to the S55. It has all the same strengths (power, cooling, reliability) and fixed some of the weaknesses (crank hub, slightly improved sound) but its by no means compares to the change from a naturally aspirated S65 to forced induction S55. I'd be surprised if the S55 is eulogized, its effective but dull. Drive an E90 M3 back to back with an M2C, the M2C is numb and lacking soul by comparison and its literally the best BMW can cough up in this generation. I was sorely disappointed with mine for that reason (despite the fantastic chassis, diff, electronics) but perhaps I was expecting too much.

I think I've seen you post something similar elsewhere. You went the Porsche route, more power to you (there some things the Cayman does much better than a BMW).

I am not sure that I agree the M2C is the best BMW in this generation, IMO the state of the engine tune stock was not optimal, and I didn't like the lack of positive feedback from the front of the car. I liked the engine tune in the M2CS much better, it's similar (same?) to the M3 ZCP tune, a fairly linear one with a good top end.

But the M3/4 CS map is amazing (and the GTS one maybe even more so). And once you go Stage1 on this engine, it's just about perfect. IMO of course - and I've put my money where my mouth is.

I've owned a "purist-spec" E90 M3 for 6 years (slicktop, non-idrive, 6sp, EDC and 18" wheels) and profoundly loved the experience. Euro delivery, street, track you name it. But now I'm getting on 5+ years with the F80 chassis (split over two cars) and in my personal experience, you could not be further off.

The F generation cars are incredible performers and I would never go back to an E90 M3. Too heavy, too big. Were I to submit to nostalgia, I'd go for an E46 M3, it's a much smaller, nimbler and more fun car, with a very charismatic engine.

Just my take on it.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by adc

I think I've seen you post something similar elsewhere. You went the Porsche route, more power to you (there some things the Cayman does much better than a BMW).

I am not sure that I agree the M2C is the best BMW in this generation, IMO the state of the engine tune stock was not optimal, and I didn't like the lack of positive feedback from the front of the car. I liked the engine tune in the M2CS much better, it's similar (same?) to the M3 ZCP tune, a fairly linear one with a good top end.

But the M3/4 CS map is amazing (and the GTS one maybe even more so). And once you go Stage1 on this engine, it's just about perfect. IMO of course - and I've put my money where my mouth is.

I've owned a "purist-spec" E90 M3 for 6 years (slicktop, non-idrive, 6sp, EDC and 18" wheels) and profoundly loved the experience. Euro delivery, street, track you name it. But now I'm getting on 5+ years with the F80 chassis (split over two cars) and in my personal experience, you could not be further off.

The F generation cars are incredible performers and I would never go back to an E90 M3. Too heavy, too big. Were I to submit to nostalgia, I'd go for an E46 M3, it's a much smaller, nimbler and more fun car, with a very charismatic engine.

Just my take on it.

Don't mention the 'P' word, you will set some people off

Totally appreciate your opinion, I am also someone who put my money where my mouth is (and took a pretty big bath in the process)! The F8x was a big improvement in lots of ways and a marked step up in performance. I don't think lack of positive front end feel was just limited to the M2C, although I have limited miles in F80 M3's by comparison. The tune was definitely neutured on the M2C, it flattens out before 7K. Certainly compared to its contemporaries the F8x was a winner, even just for the ability to spec a manual trans. I just felt it lost something, an intangible 'specialness' which I think ultimately came down to the powerplant and inputs.

[BDO]

Pure opinionated wankery, only without Clarckson's affinity for prose it comes across as a geeky kid trying too hard to emulate his idol.

[thaalrasha]

Originally Posted by jmack123

This is the problem with anecdotal statements. The X5M isn't track capable? It (F85) was certainly capable of outpacing an M5 (F10) when compared in a track setting. Again, the idea that these vehicles aren't track capable is laughable and is an antiquated paradigm. While that may have been the case in decades past, technological advancements have clearly demonstrated that the gap has significantly narrowed in that regard.

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

On the Nurburgring, it performed comparably to the prior generation M5/M6. As we would expect, the cars should outperform the SUVs, however the fact that it could compete with the prior generation M cars is admirable:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

Never said they were not capable or fast... Just saying that they have a physical handicap by their tall and heavy nature even if technology can partially hide this, there are still laws of physics on top. I'm sure the enlighten person that created the SUV didn't have track use in mind... So probably a street sports cars is an easier and more appropriate endeavour to make track capable

Bottom line: I'm pretty sure you can cut a steak with a spoon sharpen to death, but it's always easier to sharpen a dull knife to do that.

[IB M]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

According to https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1551939, 34.6K F80 M3 vehicles were produced. Very respectable numbers.

Humbly speaking, I don't think F80 M3 is a miss. Just the opposite. I almost bought one but decided that for daily driving 440i GC would be more practical.

For the record dear Top Gear - The F80 was not a miss.

Perhaps it's not as touchy feely or engaging as the NA, hydraulic steering cars of yesteryear but IMHO it is the BEST overall all rounder do everything car on this list. It's an absolute beast as a 4 door performance sedan with available 6MT and it is one of the best looking best proportioned cars M has ever made, not too big, not too small. It is also the last of the M3 lineage as the G80 with its size, weight, terrible looks and electric hand brake is an M3 in name only.

The first 4 gens of M3 are all sublime in their own ways but the F80 stands tall with all of them.

Dismounting from my high horse now.

PS the Giulia is not better looking, crazy Brits fall head over heels for anything Italian

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

I like how the F10 is kind of a hit, but the M6 is good because it's "prettier".

Same cars...

I've driven an F10 M5 back to back with my M6 and the M6 is noticeably more agile. Mine is an F13 though not an F06 and I've only driven non-comp F06 M6s so I wouldn't want to say that the F06 is any better than the F10 but to drive I believe the F13 is a bit better than an F10. Yes I'm defending my own car, but I could have bought either and I chose to apy more

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The S58 is very similar to the S55. It has all the same strengths (power, cooling, reliability) and fixed some of the weaknesses (crank hub, slightly improved sound) but its by no means compares to the change from a naturally aspirated S65 to forced induction S55. I'd be surprised if the S55 is eulogized, its effective but dull. Drive an E90 M3 back to back with an M2C, the M2C is numb and lacking soul by comparison and its literally the best BMW can cough up in this generation. I was sorely disappointed with mine for that reason (despite the fantastic chassis, diff, electronics) but perhaps I was expecting too much.

And sure, any ICE engine compared to an electric appliance is going to be more interesting. But the feel and sound of a naturally aspirated big displacement engine beats turbos every time for driving enjoyment. For a daily driver don't get me wrong, turbos are great. The B48 in my 3 series is very impressive, torquey, responsive, refined, easy on fuel. Some folks will disagree on turbos muting the modern performance car experience and I understand that POV too. Certainly I applaud that BMW still make manual transmission 4 seater cars and they haven't lost that track on Sunday, take the kids to school on Monday appeal.

I think we’re being prisoners of the moment a little bit. I grew up in the 90s when nothing was more exciting than a turbocharged power delivery. All I wanted when I grew up was a Ferrari f40. Of course, I knew that was never going to happen, but a skyline GT-R with an 8k rpm TT I-6? Maybe someday I could own something like that...

Now everything is turbocharged, but that won’t last forever. Ten years from now, we’re not going to look back at 7500+ rpm twin turbo I6 engines with anything but nostalgia. Remember, the s58 has a lower redline thanks to it having to be mated to torque converters. There will of course be even more nostalgia for the s65 engine but my point is that what seems normal now won’t last forever.

[canadianbimmerlover]

Originally Posted by gds52

The writer is biased with his tunnel-vision thinking. He hates both Z's and probably never driven one. Other M cars he is ridiculing seems prejudiced.
He seems like a Mercedes driver working for Top Gear

Agreed. The Z4M has one of the greatest BMW 6 cylinders ever made - and one of the last naturally aspirated ones. How can a car with that engine and a 6 speed manual gearbox be a miss?

[gds52]

Originally Posted by canadianbimmerlover

Agreed. The Z4M has one of the greatest BMW 6 cylinders ever made - and one of the last naturally aspirated ones. How can a car with that engine and a 6 speed manual gearbox be a miss?

Apart from the engine (which is same as M3), Z4M coupe is 200lbs lighter than M3.
Apparently, no one talks about weight now.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by gds52

Apart from the engine (which is same as M3), Z4M coupe is 200lbs lighter than M3.
Apparently, no one talks about weight now.

Every G8x detractor is talking about weight :

[gds52]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Every G8x detractor is talking about weight :

Lol, that's true, but that's 'us' enthusiasts talking about it. Or I maybe wrong, press reviewers might be talking.
Honestly speaking, after driving many very fast new cars(BMW/Audi/Porsche), I'm completely turned-off from them. Too fast, no feedback electric steering. You don't feel any speed when driving at highway speeds.
I absolutely have no desire to ever own these newer cars. So I don't even bother to read a review.
It's sad, but good for me

[junx]

F80/2 owners readying their pitchforks lol

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by canadianbimmerlover

Agreed. The Z4M has one of the greatest BMW 6 cylinders ever made - and one of the last naturally aspirated ones. How can a car with that engine and a 6 speed manual gearbox be a miss?

I think both the z3 and the Z4 pretty bad looking (except ironically the back half of the z4 coupe, which is really good looking.) I believe BMW had to raise the z4s hood for pedestrian safety and the result just looks absurdly phallic to me in profile.

The styling of those cars is just nails on chalkboard to a small minority of us, so I can see the author labeling them as misses. HOWEVER, I still think he’s wrong. as I said, we are a small minority. Mechanically the cars (especially the z4) are great and I honestly think they should be considered “hits” since the styling doesn’t bother most people. They’re true sports cars too, unlike the huge majority of M cars that have to share their platforms with more pedestrian vehicles.

[G80indy]

Had a Z4M. The s54 vanos rattle at 3200 rpm and notchy g-box lost me, and that all appeared at 1200 miles on the odometer. The coupe rear end especially was Bangle job for sure and hasn't aged well IMO; where the Z3 has aged better. The Z4M R/C are a little squirrelly at the limit...
Where e9x is more linear and thus predictable.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

I've driven an F10 M5 back to back with my M6 and the M6 is noticeably more agile. Mine is an F13 though not an F06 and I've only driven non-comp F06 M6s so I wouldn't want to say that the F06 is any better than the F10 but to drive I believe the F13 is a bit better than an F10. Yes I'm defending my own car, but I could have bought either and I chose to apy more

I trust your opinion, but I don't think there is a big enough difference to call one a hit, and the other a miss.

[cheezsandwiches]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Nice reading:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ret...YkzSc2hLnVSo#1

Written by stupid people for stupid people.

Just LOVE opinion pieces developed by fat ego.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by Staszek

I agree with most of their assessments save 2. The new X3M is fantastic, it should not be lumped in with the X4M.

And the E60 M5 was a miss. As much as I love the engine it was a wreck and the interior is awful.

My 3 favs on the list, E39 M5, E46 M3, and of course the E30 M3.

I must agree about the E60 M5. I turned mine over after 6 weeks. The SMG gearbox gave me whiplash.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by Montaver

However the trade off has been numb steering married to effective but not particularly thrilling turbo engines, particularly the S55. As an enthusiast aural experience and driver engagement/feedback are key in my book, and modern M cars are lacking in this department. The last great M car they made is the e9x M3...

The V8 in the e9x M3 was a fantastic engine but did have to be pushed hard to give its best and lacked torque.

The S55 seems to get a lot of stick, but coupled to the titanium MPE seems to do a pretty good job whilst sounding ok, but no, nowhere near as great as the S65 V8 at high revs.

[scoale]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Here's the thing about the S55: It does seem less thrilling and pure than the NA V8 it replaced, but once the S58 powered M3 and M4 come out people will start throwing shade at it saying "it's all about easy power, why did BMW have to lower the redline and make it less about the experience and more about instant torque?" and then the successor to the S58 will come out and people will suddenly start looking at the S58 and thinking "Well now we have an M3 that redlines at 6500 RPM, man the S58 was such a characterful and awesome engine!" And then the successor to that will come out and it will be electric and everyone will say "Awww man! Remember the previous gasoline powered engine? That thing was a peach!"

Have owned 2013 E92M and currently own 2018 F80 M3. F80 wins on weight and, just as importantly, feels lighter; E92 always felt heavy. They both look great. E92 wins on sound and redline. F80 wins on torque and everyday usability. F80 brakes better. E92 better steering. I prefer E92 interior, but I prefer lower F80 seating position. F80 ride is more compliant (I don't run 20" comp wheels). F80 will leave E92 for dead on track, but might leave driver dead in a ditch...but only if you don't respect it. Overall, I prefer F80 but YMMV.

I also own a 2021 M2c and, in some ways, it is better than both!

[Staszek]

Originally Posted by scoale

Have owned 2013 E92M and currently own 2018 F80 M3. F80 wins on weight and, just as importantly, feels lighter; E92 always felt heavy. They both look great. E92 wins on sound and redline. F80 wins on torque and everyday usability. F80 brakes better. E92 better steering. I prefer E92 interior, but I prefer lower F80 seating position. F80 ride is more compliant (I don't run 20" comp wheels). F80 will leave E92 for dead on track, but might leave driver dead in a ditch...but only if you don't respect it. Overall, I prefer F80 but YMMV.

I also own a 2021 M2c and, in some ways, it is better than both!

The F8x is better in every driving dynamic accept sound and steering. The F8x is light years better as a daily driver, I find it annoying at times reving out my engine to keep up with a Toyota Camry at a light lol.

That being said I have driven both extensively on a track and I walk away always enjoying my time more with the E9x vs the F8x. Its definitely a personal feeling because the F80 is way more capable and a lot faster, but I like how I feel after driving the E9x much more then the F8x. I actually have the most fun with my S54 E30 but that is another story lol.