Still want an EV? (NO POLITICS)

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Back ground: My company sells LiPo's and I have been racing with them for 10 plus years.
The charging of almost any battery is a chemical reaction to store the energy. The rate of charge is limited by numerous factors like the chemical reaction speed and control of heat build up. In RC Racing we use far more sophisticated chargers that monitor individual cells and balance the charge. This is not the case in a EV LiPo battery which balances packs not cells. Fact is the faster you charge a LiPo the greater internal resistance in the cells and the lower capacity and shorter battery life.
Many companies have been saying they have 5min recharging but I have yet to see commercially available prototypes.
A while back I posted an interesting article on a new technology that changed the fluid electrolytes for ICE like recharges.
https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...tomobiles.html

If you have 3-phase current 480V voltage.
A 250 kW V3 Supercharger charges at 300amps
Charges a Tesla Model 3 from 5 to 90 percent in 37 minutes

No, no, no. You don't get it. YoU cAN cHRaGe aT hoMe!,,! Fast charging at DCFC is for loooosers.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Now that Ford has adopted the NACS and offeres an adapter (for free thru June 30th) the Mach E owners are all wetting themselves over access to the Tesla network. Even though most HATE Elon Musk for his eX's (err... Tweets).

I bet the Tesla owners won't be happy. Now all other EV owners are fighting with Tesla owners for the Tesla quick charging stations. This is going to be interesting.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Right, shit is not being banned, but governments are banning the combustion of hydrocarbon fuels by the internal combustion engine. Googleit.

And?

Its called the march of progress.

Are you against progress?

Edit: you mean this? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/c...key-facts.html

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Back ground: My company sells LiPo's and I have been racing with them for 10 plus years.
The charging of almost any battery is a chemical reaction to store the energy. The rate of charge is limited by numerous factors like the chemical reaction speed and control of heat build up. In RC Racing we use far more sophisticated chargers that monitor individual cells and balance the charge. This is not the case in a EV LiPo battery which balances packs not cells. Fact is the faster you charge a LiPo the greater internal resistance in the cells and the lower capacity and shorter battery life.
Many companies have been saying they have 5min recharging but I have yet to see commercially available prototypes.
A while back I posted an interesting article on a new technology that changed the fluid electrolytes for ICE like recharges.
https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...tomobiles.html

If you have 3-phase current 480V voltage.
A 250 kW V3 Supercharger charges at 300amps
Charges a Tesla Model 3 from 5 to 90 percent in 37 minutes

Charging the battery with 300 amps, that is a lot of current passing through the battery. I will never sit inside a EV car for even one second while it is charging

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

The problem with high density solid state level 4+ charging batteries is that you are dealing with just stupid consumer level voltage and amperage. It only exacerbates grid problems to the next level not to mention it demands every battery be made perfectly times millions.

Compare this to processor manufacturing and usage. Over time less dies are discarded as the processes matured and the issues with operations like heat were "solved". The amount of heat vs processing cycles has gone down.

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

I would trust Toyota to "get it right", I just know for a fact that they're not going to be inexpensive. Just a guess, but I think you're far more likely to see this battery technology deployed in some $200k exotic first, like a hypothetical "LFA EV," where every bit of range and performance counts. Then, once they can ramp it and bring costs down, it will finally find its way into lower and middle tier consumer transportation appliance type vehicles.

I stated early adopters will pay for it. Over time costs will come down for a number of reasons. Manufacturing capacity, competition, improving technology, etc..

Think about ICE cars. There have been a number of innovations that used to cost a lot that have become more affordable. I can remember paying huge money for carbon fiber parts, waiting weeks for them to be custom made, and now I can order them from Amazon.

[x622]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Compare this to processor manufacturing and usage. Over time less dies are discarded as the processes matured and the issues with operations like heat were "solved". The amount of heat vs processing cycles has gone down.

Huh? No they aren't. Current EUV manufacturing with high amounts of masks see a high failure rate. The yield at say 32nm vs 5nm is substantially different, as is the cost to get there.


Heat isn't a factor, it's a fundamental issue with the amount of masks. More masks = higher chance of a bad yield.

[Car-Addicted]

Dan B I promise I'm not the (Get off my Lawn) guy but....
IMO EV battery technology will pass right over Solid-State Batteries.

CATL’s Boss Doesn’t Think Solid-State Batteries Will Be Viable Any Time Soon
April 15, 2024
The company has been working on solid-state batteries for a decade but isn't convinced by them.
The founder and chief executive of the world’s largest EV battery manufacturer believes solid-state batteries remain many years away, despite Toyota’s recent claim it could commercialize the new batteries within three years.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/ca...any-time-soon/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by murderspice

And?

Its called the march of progress.

Are you against progress?

It's called totalitarianism.

[Car-Addicted]

I don't want to date myself but when I was in college the first Ti hand calculators hit the market and they were over $400.00 and every well funded engineering student had one. I was not well funded so it was a slide rule for me. It was not long till there were $25.00 hand calculators that would kick the $400.00 versions to the curb. Early EV owners have experienced some serious depreciation and that is always the price of being on the cutting edge of technology. I think this is why they created the lease.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's called totalitarianism.

I thought you used words like they commonly appear in the dictionary?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No, no, no. You don't get it. YoU cAN cHRaGe aT hoMe!,,! Fast charging at DCFC is for loooosers.

I'm all at sea with this EV charging, when I see one being charged at a house or elsewhere to me it's like a gas pump is connected to it and it takes an hour or more for it to fill the tank

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I don't want to date myself but when I was in college the first Ti hand calculators hit the market and they were over $400.00 and every well funded engineering student had one. I was not well funded so it was a slide rule for me. It was not long till there were $25.00 hand calculators that would kick the $400.00 versions to the curb. Early EV owners have experienced some serious depreciation and that is always the price of being on the cutting edge of technology. I think this is why they created the lease.

No doubt, but an EV is not a calculator. The technology cost curve is not the same across the board for electronic hardware. Battery cost is the EV's Achilles heel. The cost curve for lithium ion batteries has mostly flattened to around $140 per kWh , down from around $700 IIRC about 15 years ago. A better density battery that can charge faster is going to cost more for a long time ahead and may not plateau below where lithium-ion is now. And EV's are too expensive for most of the 1st-tier market to get into; add to that the $2,000 home infrastructure cost to charge them.

Most EV makers are losing thousands on a per unit basis right now with "low cost" liquid lithium-ion batteries and most EV get 250 miles of range on a 75kWh battery and take 40 minutes to charge to just 80%.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by murderspice

I thought you used words like they commonly appear in the dictionary?

Here we go...

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No doubt, but an EV is not a calculator. The technology cost curve is not the same across the board for electronic hardware. Battery cost is the EV's Achilles heel. The cost curve for lithium ion batteries has mostly flattened to around $140 per kWh , down from around $700 IIRC about 15 years ago. A better density battery that can charge faster is going to cost more for a long time ahead and may not plateau below where Lithium-ion is now. And EV's are too expensive for most of the 1st-tier market to get into; add to that the $2,000 home infrastructure cost to charge them.

Most EV makers are losing thousands on a per unit basis right now with "low cost" liquid Lithium-ion batteries and most EV get 250 miles of range on a 75kWh battery and take 40 minutes to charge to just 80%.

Gasoline is sold by the pint! And only at pharmacies! One blacksmith can shoe a hundred horses. No way will cars reach that efficiency. I can ride a horse anywhere with grass; youre stuck to town.

[Car-Addicted]

When the EMP's start going off you will find the value in a good horse!
Matter of fact the Model T will start looking pretty good.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Back ground: My company sells LiPo's and I have been racing with them for 10 plus years.
The charging of almost any battery is a chemical reaction to store the energy. The rate of charge is limited by numerous factors like the chemical reaction speed and control of heat build up. In RC Racing we use far more sophisticated chargers that monitor individual cells and balance the charge. This is not the case in a EV LiPo battery which balances packs not cells. Fact is the faster you charge a LiPo the greater internal resistance in the cells and the lower capacity and shorter battery life.
Many companies have been saying they have 5min recharging but I have yet to see commercially available prototypes.
A while back I posted an interesting article on a new technology that changed the fluid electrolytes for ICE like recharges.
https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...tomobiles.html

If you have 3-phase current 480V voltage.
A 250 kW V3 Supercharger charges at 300amps
Charges a Tesla Model 3 from 5 to 90 percent in 37 minutes

Quick side note, I used to race an Optima Mid back in the day. Fun times! I also raced box 25, group 27, and open slot cars. Basically I raced anything with wheels

I agree 100% on lipo battery technology. Did you read the paper on SS?

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by x622

Back ground: My company sells LiPo's and I have been racing with them for 10 plus years.
The charging of almost any battery is a chemical reaction to store the energy. The rate of charge is limited by numerous factors like the chemical reaction speed and control of heat build up. In RC Racing we use far more sophisticated chargers that monitor individual cells and balance the charge. This is not the case in a EV LiPo battery which balances packs not cells. Fact is the faster you charge a LiPo the greater internal resistance in the cells and the lower capacity and shorter battery life.
Many companies have been saying they have 5min recharging but I have yet to see commercially available prototypes.
A while back I posted an interesting article on a new technology that changed the fluid electrolytes for ICE like recharges.
https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2017/Q2/instantly-rechargeable-battery-could-change-the-future-of-electric-and-hybrid-automobiles.html

If you have 3-phase current 480V voltage.
A 250 kW V3 Supercharger charges at 300amps
Charges a Tesla Model 3 from 5 to 90 percent in 37 minutes

Quick side note, I used to race an Optima Mid back in the day. Fun times!

I agree 100% on lipo battery technology. Did you read the paper on SS?
Huh? No they aren't. Current EUV manufacturing with high amounts of masks see a high failure rate. The yield at say 32nm vs 5nm is substantially different, as is the cost to get there.


Heat isn't a factor, it's a fundamental issue with the amount of masks. More masks = higher chance of a bad yield.

I apologize, I said dies. When you look at the failure rate across the same die it has gone down over time. And advances in manufatruring have even improved some numbers on smaller dies.

The point is, as manufacturing improves, costs typically go down.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No doubt, but an EV is not a calculator. The technology cost curve is not the same across the board for electronic hardware. Battery cost is the EV's Achilles heel.

On this we disagree, the calculators Achilles heel was the development of the transistor. The car industry in general is driven by technology. I concede that the EV battery issue is more one of developing supply changes and economy of scale than technology but everything else relating to the EV is all about technology from the huge screen dash's to autonomous driving and the EV owners addiction to software upgrades.

Pardon me while I yell at a couple kids on my front lawn.

[Equilibrandt]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I'm all at sea with this EV charging, when I see one being charged at a house or elsewhere to me it's like a gas pump is connected to it and it takes an hour or more for it to fill the tank

How is this a difficult concept? If I had an EV, it'd be 24 cents per kWh (after 9PM), and a Tesla Model 3 Performance's battery is 74 kWh. Simple math.

If I could somehow safely park at a gas station overnight, forget about my car, and fill up to ~80% of a tank for $14 USD, I probably would...

[beaups]

Originally Posted by Equilibrandt

How is this a difficult concept? If I had an EV, it'd be 24 cents per kWh (after 9PM), and a Tesla Model 3 Performance's battery is 74 kWh. Simple math.

If I could somehow safely park at a gas station overnight, forget about my car, and fill up to ~80% of a tank for $14 USD, I probably would...

Your “simple math” conveniently forgets the ~15% of energy lost while charging, but to your point, it’s still cheap. Separately, imagine the backlash if everyone spilled 3 gallons of gas every time they filled up? The EV folks would have a fit.

[Equilibrandt]

Originally Posted by beaups

Your “simple math” conveniently forgets the ~15% of energy lost while charging, but to your point, it’s still cheap. Separately, imagine the backlash if everyone spilled 3 gallons of gas every time they filled up? The EV folks would have a fit.

Without addressing your willful cognitive dissonance, touting 15% losses is a "convenient" deflect to work into every conversation that doesn't take into account wire gauge, how long the run from the panel to the EVSE is, which EVSE is being used, and if the car itself has smart warm-up/battery conditioning settings (which more and more do).

I don't even own an EV and I know better than to quote electrical/heat/efficiency losses as fact. Unless you'd like to talk about the efficiency of your V8.

Originally Posted by Weather Man

You're not factoring what electricity will cost when everyone, and the utility scale battery storage and transportation industry is trying to fill up based off the current mandates. CA can barely keep the Greens from shutting down a nuclear plant needed to stop complete grid collapse, MN is shutting down a key coal plant and can't get the 2 needed gas plants built because of Green lawsuits...the infrastrucure needed isn't being built. Only subsidized intermittent wind and solar is being built to supply a fraction of what is needed, intermittently!

It's not either of our jobs to work that math out; the invisible hand of economics will absolutely resolve that or EVs will die. No one blinks an eye when OPEC/RUS have the potential to spike gas prices to a point where getting a simple Amazon order shipped to me is going to cost me some % more. I love having my fuel costs dictated by foreign countries (or are we still falsely assuming whichever grandpa's in office has any bearing on fuel costs?). I see natural gas and EV delivery trucks about once a week near me in SoCal. *shrugs*

I don't know about you, but I think making wide-brush assumptions as if EVERYONE would own an EV when deciding if I, today, should consider one is an asinine thought process.

[Car-Addicted]

Equilibrandt

I suspect this is the source for the numbers, or at least close.
EVs Explained: Charging Losses
When adding energy to an EV's battery pack, more is expended than what makes it into the pack. How much varies considerably depending on the electrical output and ambient conditions.
Because the battery is more complicated than a simple container. A rough expectation is that your EV may use as much as 12 to 15 percent more energy than what you add back to the battery. Some energy is written off to what's known as "transmission loss," some is converted to heat, and some is used to keep the battery at the right temperature during charging.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...arging-losses/

This doesn't take into account the transmission loss in the charger itself or the transmission loses in the grid. Your point about outside influences in this is quite true IMO. At the end of the day the only real comparison is the cost per mile of the EV vs the ICE. Both sides of this argument have a tendency to shade the truth or commit the sin of omission.