All-new 2023 Nissan Z makes world debut

[supra93]

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...th-the-z.1264/

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Where available, manuals are no cost options in BMWs and it's been that way for a long time. My 6MT M235 was no more than a 8AT AND I deleted the moonroof too which I didn't get any money back for that. In the end, I'll get way more money for my 6MT, no moonroof, LSD equipped M235 than the garden variety 8AT and moonroof equipped M235s the vast majority have. Manuals will ALWAYS command a higher resale in sporty cars compared to the autos, even if the autos are faster/quicker. I wanted my M235 to be the lightest, most connected, version of the car I could get. It weighs over 300lbs less than a comparatively equipped M235x. That's huge.

& it's still not an M2. Just a BMW. Just drive it

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

& it's still not an M2. Just a BMW. Just drive it

True and I've driven my car hard for 6+ years and 60K miles. It's been super reliable too. I do love the M2. So sexy and a great chassis.

My M235 is running 245/35R18 tires up front which makes a MASSIVE difference in front end grip over stock. It's so obvious that BMW ran narrow front tires on the M235/240 to keep the performance gap between it and the M2 larger. My M235 is pushing around 380whp/400wtq so it's as quick as a M2 Comp when you consider the fact that my lightweight M235 weighs around 200lbs less than an M2C.

Once I get my 2003/2004 Corvette Z06 fun car, I'll likely sell my M235 and get an auto M240 or a OG M2 DCT for my daily. The chassis, room, reliability, and minimal tech of the 1st gen 2 series is too damn good to pass up.

[freakystyly]

I think the point is that the 2 series was never meant to be a track weapon (see skinny tires, lack of camber adjust, brakes, etc.). The M2 does a decent job at filling in the gaps where the 2er is lacking (wide hips ), whether it is worth the extra $$ to one person or another is different story. Mods can usually be done to fill in the gaps if you drop enough money on any car.

I do enjoy my 2er as a DD, it does everything well for what I am after but am under no illusion that it would do well on the track in stock form.

Bringing it back on topic: It's a bit of the feeling I get when people compare the Z to the supra too... they are a bit too much apples and oranges.

[supra93]

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...e-2#post-36705

[minn19]

As a former multiple 300Z owner (87,93), I want to love this thing. They hit it out of the park with the retro styling IMO, but with most numbers that can’t beat my wife’s 5000 pound Cayenne S, that is a real disappointment.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by minn19

As a former multiple 300Z owner (87,93), I want to love this thing. They hit it out of the park with the retro styling IMO, but with most numbers that can’t beat my wife’s 5000 pound Cayenne S, that is a real disappointment.

They could and should have done better.

I would buy a supra over the z any day of the week and I dislike the new supra.

It is like they thought they were competing against themselves. Yeah much better than the 370z. But cost wise is far away from the supra for what you get. Especially if you care about the aftermarket or potential.

Just my take, and I really wanted Nissan to hit it out of the park as I was/am a huge Nissan fan.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by minn19

As a former multiple 300Z owner (87,93), I want to love this thing. They hit it out of the park with the retro styling IMO, but with most numbers that can’t beat my wife’s 5000 pound Cayenne S, that is a real disappointment.

I had an '88 white Z with the maroon interior, digital dash and climate control in high and starting college. So that would have been 98-2001. Loved that thing. I beat the car so hard for so many miles and it just kept asking for more.

Did what I could with my limited money. Eibach springs and Koni Yellows, ST sways, 240SX throttle body and custom exhaust with a Thermal Research & Development muffler.

[No Boost]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-30-compared/

Another comparison test, another L.
And as a side note, how the hell is an M240 heavier than a Mach 1, regardless of drivetrain?

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by No Boost

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-30-compared/

Another comparison test, another L.
And as a side note, how the hell is an M240 heavier than a Mach 1, regardless of drivetrain?

If you add up all the M badges.....it's at least 200 lbs

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by No Boost

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-30-compared/

Another comparison test, another L.
And as a side note, how the hell is an M240 heavier than a Mach 1, regardless of drivetrain?

We know. We hated to write that as much as you're disappointed to read it. One of the most oft-repeated mutterings during this test went something like "I wanted to like it more than I did." Our initial brief encounter with the Z at the launch event showed promise, but in this longer fight against direct and tangential rivals on roads of our own choosing, the long-awaited Z fell to the back of the pack. At first glance it captures the value and performance of the original Z quite well, but nothing brings flaws to light like several days of driving the competition.

They admittedly were very kind to this last place car. I just don't understand why everyone is so surprised that it's just not a great car. The 370Z was a very mediocre car and it's issues were always deeper than just the drivetrain.

[Alfisti]

Yeah just read the article. I don't understand the rear seat delete on the Mustang. a) it increased the cost and b) the M2 got points for a rear seat.

I keep saying peeps, Mustangs are not to be under estimated. There's a lot to like. If the M2 isn't lighter than the 'stang, why in god's name am i buying it unless I want to be coddled by the interior?

My suspicion, and I may well be wrong, is that for the new stang Ford will change very little with drivetrain etc, just refine everything, but will seriously improve the interior.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by No Boost

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-30-compared/

Another comparison test, another L.
And as a side note, how the hell is an M240 heavier than a Mach 1, regardless of drivetrain?

You can call it an "L", but did you look at the score breakdown? It "lost" mostly in steering feel, brake feel, ride and "Fun to Drive". Besides, it is track-focused car vs 3 enthusiast daily drivers.

feel - to be expected. I dont have my M240 yet, but I am fully confident the feel will be "good enough" for everyday
ride - the ride of a Mustang superior to a BMW ?? seriously?
"fun" - 25 vs 16 - how is this possibly quantified? Probably more like ad revenue per manufacturer

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

You can call it an "L", but did you look at the score breakdown? It "lost" mostly in steering feel, brake feel, ride and "Fun to Drive". Besides, it is track-focused car vs 3 enthusiast daily drivers.

feel - to be expected. I dont have my M240 yet, but I am fully confident the feel will be "good enough" for everyday
ride - the ride of a Mustang superior to a BMW ?? seriously?
"fun" - 25 vs 16 - how is this possibly quantified? Probably more like ad revenue per manufacturer

He's calling it a "L" for the Z, not the M240i. Also, you can't just say "the ride of a Mustang superior to a BMW??" There's a lot more to it than that. Most reviews of the Mach 1 have commented positively on the suspension. I also wouldn't doubt that the Mustang is more fun.

[Alfisti]

Cars are so heavy today that sportier ones are often set up rock hard to hit handling metrics. The stang uses magnaride which is a bit of "best of both worlds" to a degree.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by No Boost

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-30-compared/

Another comparison test, another L.
And as a side note, how the hell is an M240 heavier than a Mach 1, regardless of drivetrain?

So they tested a pre-production Z against other cars, and the main complaint was the tires, which I've seen mentioned numerous times. YES, they come on the car, but we would most definitely see better results if it came with the same tires as the Supra.

Pricing is good (not great) on the Z, since the engine is carried over from the Q50/Q60, there's already a TON of aftermarket support for it, I don't understand the hate. You can get a 6MT V6 TT sports car for $40k. The cheapest 3L Supra (8AT only for now) is $52k, the new M2 will be $60k+... A stripper Mustang 5.0 is $38k and a stripper Camaro SS is $36k for reference. Hell, an ND Miata Club with the Brembo package is over $37k.

I don't understand this new "trend" of people on the internet discussing track times and 1/4 mile times... 99% of people can't drive a car fast nor will they ever go to a track/drag strip. It's the main reason why manufacturers don't care about enthusiasts any more. Complain, complain, complain, and then we don't buy the cars anyways. I see an MKV Supra at least once a day near me, and I guarantee I'll see double the amount of new Z's.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

He's calling it a "L" for the Z, not the M240i. Also, you can't just say "the ride of a Mustang superior to a BMW??" There's a lot more to it than that. Most reviews of the Mach 1 have commented positively on the suspension. I also wouldn't doubt that the Mustang is more fun.

Ah missed the intent of the "L", but against this field, how could it not? A comparison vs a Lexus RC or Q60 would be more in-class.

I realize you can't just say about the ride, but surprised that the ride of a car built for the track would be more comfortable than a luxury sports coupe intended as a daily. Maybe so, since this article is performance-slanted.

I am sure the Mach 1 is a great car and tons of fun - and I would be surprised if it didn't win this comparison. It is a different class of car and should be compared to an M2, RC-F, or NISMO.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

Ah missed the intent of the "L", but against this field, how could it not? A comparison vs a Lexus RC or Q60 would be more in-class.

I realize you can't just say about the ride, but surprised that the ride of a car built for the track would be more comfortable than a luxury sports coupe intended as a daily. Maybe so, since this article is performance-slanted.

I am sure the Mach 1 is a great car and tons of fun - and I would be surprised if it didn't win this comparison. It is a different class of car and should be compared to an M2, RC-F, or NISMO.

The one thing to note about the Mach 1 in any of these comparisons is the tires that comes with that package. They are not only Cup 2 but MASSIVE Cup 2 tires and it's a ridiculous advantage for the Mustang. Even at that it was a split decision as some still preferred the Supra (finished one point behind) which they kind of skewed the results by giving it such a low score for appearance.

Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2
F: 305/30ZR-19 (98Y)
R: 315/30ZR-19 (100Y)

[Alfisti]

In the end though, it's price that matters. SO if FOrd equip the sang with CUP2 rubber at a similar price to the Z with bicycle tyres then so be it. In saying that, agree if there's room in the budget (as in the Z is cheap enough that dropping 2K on rubber keeps it in the same class) they should swap out the tyres and see what difference that makes.

Another question i have to ask, if the 2 series is so, so close to the weight of a 3 series, why am I buying a 2 series? Let's pretend the stupid grille i snot there and we are talking F80, why am I getting a M2 if there's fuck all difference in weight?

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

In the end though, it's price that matters. SO if FOrd equip the sang with CUP2 rubber at a similar price to the Z with bicycle tyres then so be it. In saying that, agree if there's room in the budget (as in the Z is cheap enough that dropping 2K on rubber keeps it in the same class) they should swap out the tyres and see what difference that makes.

Another question i have to ask, if the 2 series is so, so close to the weight of a 3 series, why am I buying a 2 series? Let's pretend the stupid grille i snot there and we are talking F80, why am I getting a M2 if there's fuck all difference in weight?

It still has a shorter wheelbase and will feel different to drive and it will be less expensive.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well wait a second. I'd put forth the proposition that BMW brought steering feel, brake feel, ride (suspension compliance) to the mainstream vehicle starting in the 1970s, so the 2-series is just being judged against the metrics BMW brought to the table long ago. The fact that the Mustang beats it in those categories says more about BMW than it does Ford.

Or at least ZF and BMWs inability to execute EPS that doesn't feel awful.

[heavyD^2]

BMW isn't willing to sacrifice safety in the name of ultimate feel as the more powerful motors used don't transmit feel like other EPS systems with smaller motors as per Jason Cammisa.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...hing-you-want/

As I was sliding backward off the track, all I could think was that I couldn’t turn the wheel quickly enough to correct the slide. Which is funny, because I had just finished praising the GT350 for its heroically communicative electric power-assisted steering (EPAS). I was mildly relieved when I later learned that multiple colleagues have spun GT350s trying to hold drifts. So I added a few notes to OCD.xls, including “Never powerslide a Shelby, ever,” and “Have more sympathy for drivers wadding up Mustangs on their way out of Cars and Coffee events. Maybe it’s not entirely their fault.”

That got me thinking. I’ve done literally thousands of drifts in BMWs, for example, and never lost control of a car like I lost that Shelby. I talked to BMW’s head of chassis tuning about this, and it turns out, he’s found that some cars don’t measure up to several of his company’s maneuverability tests.