Top Gear - BMW M cars: the hits and the misses

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by jmack123

You do realize the label "M" is arbitrary correct? Or can you give me the exact performance specs etc that constitute a "true" M? They label the SUVs with the M badge because relative to their competition (including the other non-M SUVs in their lineup), they are geared toward higher levels of performance. In other words, relative to their competition, they are designed to outperform their class in the same way the sedans are. I guess we will agree to disagree here.

Apparently all the “purists” and “enthusiasts” here want a lightweight rear wheel drive M station wagon with a manual gear box.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by jmack123

You do realize the label "M" is arbitrary correct? Or can you give me the exact performance specs etc that constitute a "true" M? They label the SUVs with the M badge because relative to their competition (including the other non-M SUVs in their lineup), they are geared toward higher levels of performance. In other words, relative to their competition, they are designed to outperform their class in the same way the sedans are. I guess we will agree to disagree here.

"M" was the shortened version of Motorsport. BMW by virtue of their moving from "Motorsport" to simply "M" is admitting this is marketing and not a designation reserved for sport cars. The boss of the new named division is the "M-Brand" manager.

They could have stuck with "M-sport" for those SUVs that are "geared to a higher level of performance". Or what happened to those "M-Performance" models that BMW recently decided really were "real" M-cars all along?

BMW isn't alone in this brand inflation. Mercedes puts AMG on nearly anything from wheels on a 4-cylinder A-Class car to an entire beast of a sedan. And now we have Alpina trucks, for Dog's sake. Ford is probably more true to their names by reserving SVO and Cobra for only limited models.

If anyone does not interpret this as the dilution of the BMW Motorsport division with its distillation to "M" stuck on anything, then I submit they've not spent enough time around BMWs. They missed seeing the 3.0CSLs and the 320i Turbos race with four-feet of flame coming out of their exhausts at Road Atlanta. They probably don't know the derivation of the colors and circle segments in the original Motorsport badges.

They can do whatever they want with their bloated trucks, but it is a sacrilege to play on the Motorsport heritage in doing so. It's just ///Marketing.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

Apparently all the “purists” and “enthusiasts” here want a lightweight rear wheel drive M station wagon with a manual gear box.

Apparently. I get nostalgia and all, but the current gen X5M, X6M etc would outperform the M sedans from the 80s and 90s in almost every conceivable way so the idea that they aren't "true" M cars is really not founded in reality. Honestly, it reminds me of how people get upset that BMW puts M's on M-Sport models - they are afraid their "exclusive" club is going to be tarnished by outsiders. Assess the vehicles objectively for what they are. There is zero doubt that even by sedan measures, the X*M's are impressive performance vehicles. At the end of the day its a semantic argument.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

"M" was the shortened version of Motorsport. BMW by virtue of their moving from "Motorsport" to simply "M" is admitting this is marketing and not a designation reserved for sport cars. The boss of the new named division is the "M-Brand" manager.

They could have stuck with "M-sport" for those SUVs that are "geared to a higher level of performance". Or what happened to those "M-Performance" models that BMW recently decided really were "real" M-cars all along?

BMW isn't alone in this brand inflation. Mercedes puts AMG on nearly anything from wheels on a 4-cylinder A-Class car to an entire beast of a sedan. And now we have Alpina trucks, for Dog's sake. Ford is probably more true to their names by reserving SVO and Cobra for only limited models.

If anyone does not interpret this as the dilution of the BMW Motorsport division with its distillation to "M" stuck on anything, then I submit they've not spent enough time around BMWs. They missed seeing the 3.0CSLs and the 320i Turbos race with four-feet of flame coming out of their exhausts at Road Atlanta. They probably don't know the derivation of the colors and circle segments in the original Motorsport badges.

They can do whatever they want with their bloated trucks, but it is a sacrilege to play on the Motorsport heritage in doing so. It's just ///Marketing.

First off, unless you are a professional racecar driver, and using your M car as such, then the "Motorsport" designation is pointless. 99% of people are either going to occasionally track their M car or never track it at all, let alone use it for "Motorsport". The M designation therefore was never about true Motorsport. Any M car being used for professional purposes is going to be so heavily modified that it is not even a "true" M car anymore - it is a racecar. What you are purchasing is a STREET car, designed for driving around on the street (likely in accordance with speed limits). No offense, but thinking otherwise are purely delusions of grandeur.

[D22M2]

Spot on - didn’t love my f80

[thaalrasha]

Originally Posted by jmack123

First off, unless you are a professional racecar driver, and using your M car as such, then the "Motorsport" designation is pointless. 99% of people are either going to occasionally track their M car or never track it at all, let alone use it for "Motorsport". The M designation therefore was never about true Motorsport. Any M car being used for professional purposes is going to be so heavily modified that it is not even a "true" M car anymore - it is a racecar. What you are purchasing is a STREET car, designed for driving around on the street (likely in accordance with speed limits). No offense, but thinking otherwise are purely delusions of grandeur.

M cars purpose largely evolved from a real sports cars which was both track capable and also daily drivable, to a trim level of the brand. So it makes sense they expanded this to SUVs to make money in that regard. If the brand was true to itself with money not being an object we wouldn't have these M SUVs, they make little sense on a sport sense... Since they are never going to see the track i guess M lites version of them are perfect. While they make "true" M out of them they can't defy physics, bloated, heavy and high centre of gravity is just the contrary of what you want on a performance car, so they have to compromise at some levels... not saying they are not capable cars, but the form factor is just not fit for purpose.. Will most buyers care ? of course not they are not going to track them and will just use them in cities or highways anyway... So just make more money from them in order to keep real the purpose built M cars alive.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by E92TiAg335i

Let's come back to this article in 10-15 years...

It seems like something new gets released, people hate on it, then it becomes a cult classic.

E60 m5 and e92 m3 were viewed as "heavy boats with zero driving feel" as recently as 7-8 years ago.

Not sure what articels you read mate. Specially the E9xM was up in the sky on pretty much all reviews when announced but also the M5 was certainly appreciated.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by jmack123

First off, unless you are a professional racecar driver, and using your M car as such, then the "Motorsport" designation is pointless. 99% of people are either going to occasionally track their M car or never track it at all, let alone use it for "Motorsport". The M designation therefore was never about true Motorsport. Any M car being used for professional purposes is going to be so heavily modified that it is not even a "true" M car anymore - it is a racecar. What you are purchasing is a STREET car, designed for driving around on the street (likely in accordance with speed limits). No offense, but thinking otherwise are purely delusions of grandeur.

I daily my ("real") M since years now and its M features are enjoyable and special whether on the street or the track.
Sure you're right most M cars miles are done on the street. Still that doesn't change its capability; a proper M is built to manage the track as well as daily duties, thats the point. Or at least it originally was, hence "real M cars" vs non.

[Bimmr7]

So basically all the G80/G82 haters are pissed that some journalist called their car a miss?

[FormulaMMM]

Also – and this goes double for the M4 – it was about as spiky as your average mace and half as fun to wield. Cars like the Toyota GT86 and Alpine A110 can be slidey and brilliant for it, because they’re wielding just enough power to stray into silliness without sliding into trouble. The F80/82 had no such compulsion about throwing you into the weeds, and the 3.0 turbo’s minimum of 400 horsepower made sure you got there before you knew what happened.

Same here, have always hated the fact that the F80/82 isn't a Miata.

[Merlin_83]

Originally Posted by E92TiAg335i

Let's come back to this article in 10-15 years...

It seems like something new gets released, people hate on it, then it becomes a cult classic.

E60 m5 and e92 m3 were viewed as "heavy boats with zero driving feel" as recently as 7-8 years ago.

Agree - and as a long-term driver of an E92 M3 ZCP, with just 40K of fun and exhilarating drives, there's just no replacing the high RPM V8.

And I will add that I am a huge, huge fan of the E60 M5. Yes, that V10 and all its technology can be expensive to maintain, but my goodness - an S85 V10 approaching redline at 8,000 RPM...that right there is pure nirvana.

by the by - my first post on the G80/G82 forums

Cheers,
Merlin

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Also – and this goes double for the M4 – it was about as spiky as your average mace and half as fun to wield. Cars like the Toyota GT86 and Alpine A110 can be slidey and brilliant for it, because they’re wielding just enough power to stray into silliness without sliding into trouble. The F80/82 had no such compulsion about throwing you into the weeds, and the 3.0 turbo’s minimum of 400 horsepower made sure you got there before you knew what happened.

Same here, have always hated the fact that the F80/82 isn't a Miata.

Every time I see a Miata on the road... I shed a tear

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Every time I see a Miata on the road... I shed a tear

Can you even stay on the asphalt long enough to notice and feel envious?

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

M cars purpose largely evolved from a real sports cars which was both track capable and also daily drivable, to a trim level of the brand. So it makes sense they expanded this to SUVs to make money in that regard. If the brand was true to itself with money not being an object we wouldn't have these M SUVs, they make little sense on a sport sense... Since they are never going to see the track i guess M lites version of them are perfect. While they make "true" M out of them they can't defy physics, bloated, heavy and high centre of gravity is just the contrary of what you want on a performance car, so they have to compromise at some levels... not saying they are not capable cars, but the form factor is just not fit for purpose.. Will most buyers care ? of course not they are not going to track them and will just use them in cities or highways anyway... So just make more money from them in order to keep real the purpose built M cars alive.

This is the problem with anecdotal statements. The X5M isn't track capable? It (F85) was certainly capable of outpacing an M5 (F10) when compared in a track setting. Again, the idea that these vehicles aren't track capable is laughable and is an antiquated paradigm. While that may have been the case in decades past, technological advancements have clearly demonstrated that the gap has significantly narrowed in that regard.

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

On the Nurburgring, it performed comparably to the prior generation M5/M6. As we would expect, the cars should outperform the SUVs, however the fact that it could compete with the prior generation M cars is admirable:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

[Fear-Mongrel]

History is going to be very kind to the OG M2. They'll write sonnets, paint ceilings in churches, and make movies about men traveling cross country to find out why they keep hearing the burbles from a freshly-started N55 in their cornfield. People will romanticize the M2, Ray...people will most definitely romanticize the M2.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Can you even stay on the asphalt long enough to notice and feel envious?

Well typically I see them pass me by while in a ditch

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by afwares

History is going to be very kind to the OG M2. They'll write sonnets, paint ceilings in churches, and make movies about men traveling cross country to find out why they keep hearing the burbles from a freshly-started N55 in their cornfield. People will romanticize the M2, Ray...people will most definitely romanticize the M2.

I agree. Best exhaust note of any BMW turbocharged engine by far and yet all I heard when I had my M2 was that it wasn't a proper M car because it didn't have an M engine. I feel bad for people that need the assurance of others to be happy with their cars as that would be a miserable way to live. I own and X3M and couldn't care less that Top Gear hates it or if other posters want to say it's not an M-vehicle. I like it and that's all that matters as I find it just as enjoyable as my other fake M car as it's extremely fast and handles better than most vehicles on the street while having a lot of daily utility that the M2 lacked. All of this "true to the brand" nonsense is for keyboard warriors that like to pretend they are track drivers that can actually drive these cars to their limits. I don't discount that there's a small handful here that can but it's much less than the keyboard warriors would have you believe.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by jmack123

This is the problem with anecdotal statements. The X5M isn't track capable? It (F85) was certainly capable of outpacing an M5 (F10) when compared in a track setting. Again, the idea that these vehicles aren't track capable is laughable and is an antiquated paradigm. While that may have been the case in decades past, technological advancements have clearly demonstrated that the gap has significantly narrowed in that regard.

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

On the Nurburgring, it performed comparably to the prior generation M5/M6. As we would expect, the cars should outperform the SUVs, however the fact that it could compete with the prior generation M cars is admirable:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-x5-m-2015

Putting up a good fight for his SUV! If you really wanted an ///M get one mate. The BMW SUVs I'm sure is great though, be a happy bloke as it is but don't let marketing mix stuff up for you...

[Fear-Mongrel]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I agree. Best exhaust note of any BMW turbocharged engine by far and yet all I heard when I had my M2 was that it wasn't a proper M car because it didn't have an M engine. I feel bad for people that need the assurance of others to be happy with their cars as that would be a miserable way to live. I own and X3M and couldn't care less that Top Gear hates it or if other posters want to say it's not an M-vehicle. I like it and that's all that matters as I find it just as enjoyable as my other fake M car as it's extremely fast and handles better than most vehicles on the street while having a lot of daily utility that the M2 lacked. All of this "true to the brand" nonsense is for keyboard warriors that like to pretend they are track drivers that can actually drive these cars to their limits. I don't discount that there's a small handful here that can but it's much less than the keyboard warriors would have you believe.

Next time you read or hear "not a proper M car" about any model just remember that 7% of the US population thinks chocolate milk comes from brown cows. It's a personal decision how much time and energy you want to gift to the people in that 7%.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Depends on the lense you view 'progress' through to determine whether the modern cars are hits or not. The chassis, differential, tech, safety, reliability and outright pace has advanced markedly in the F generation. However the trade off has been numb steering married to effective but not particularly thrilling turbo engines, particularly the S55.

Here's the thing about the S55: It does seem less thrilling and pure than the NA V8 it replaced, but once the S58 powered M3 and M4 come out people will start throwing shade at it saying "it's all about easy power, why did BMW have to lower the redline and make it less about the experience and more about instant torque?" and then the successor to the S58 will come out and people will suddenly start looking at the S58 and thinking "Well now we have an M3 that redlines at 6500 RPM, man the S58 was such a characterful and awesome engine!" And then the successor to that will come out and it will be electric and everyone will say "Awww man! Remember the previous gasoline powered engine? That thing was a peach!"

[adc]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

"M" was the shortened version of Motorsport. BMW by virtue of their moving from "Motorsport" to simply "M" is admitting this is marketing and not a designation reserved for sport cars. The boss of the new named division is the "M-Brand" manager.

They could have stuck with "M-sport" for those SUVs that are "geared to a higher level of performance". Or what happened to those "M-Performance" models that BMW recently decided really were "real" M-cars all along?

BMW isn't alone in this brand inflation. Mercedes puts AMG on nearly anything from wheels on a 4-cylinder A-Class car to an entire beast of a sedan. And now we have Alpina trucks, for Dog's sake. Ford is probably more true to their names by reserving SVO and Cobra for only limited models.

If anyone does not interpret this as the dilution of the BMW Motorsport division with its distillation to "M" stuck on anything, then I submit they've not spent enough time around BMWs. They missed seeing the 3.0CSLs and the 320i Turbos race with four-feet of flame coming out of their exhausts at Road Atlanta. They probably don't know the derivation of the colors and circle segments in the original Motorsport badges.

They can do whatever they want with their bloated trucks, but it is a sacrilege to play on the Motorsport heritage in doing so. It's just ///Marketing.

But then there are videos like this: https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1776427

Easy solution I think, they should start racing the M trucks, give them some legitimacy. And I say this with only half my tongue in my cheek.

[adc]

Originally Posted by jmg

The 1M had its detractors when it came out, including myself. It wasn't a "real" M car, it looked like a distended cat dragging it's belly around etc... time has very kind to the 1M and it's a great car, but there is a lot of nostalgia there as well for the way cars used to drive before all the regulations and marketing started to cloud the waters. The M2 pretty much trounces the 1M in all aspects of performance driving save for the aforementioned driver experience. Maybe I am biased but I feel like the G8X is the first real step back in too many significant ways compared to its predecessor. I mean, every generation gets faster and bigger and heavier, but even the F8X and E92 I felt were at the limits of weight and size. At least the F8X trimmed the fat, but the G8X went up in both.

I think history will be kind to the M2 and F8X... unless BMW does some major soul searching, these will be the last of the traditional driver's M cars.

I think so too. I’ve owned or driven all the M3 generations to date, and other M cars. For my special purpose which is a dual capability street/track car, the F80 best so far. Actually a bit less comfortable/civilized on the street than the E90 (stiffer bushings) but more capable on track, more “Motorsport”-y feeling, and I like that just fine.

Although I have to admit I drove the M2CS and thought it was an incredible package. If it weren’t so darn expensive and hard to find I’d probably switch.