Toyota Presents World Debut of the New 2022 GR 86

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

The only people who complain about are people who don't own one.

Doesn't invalidate my point. Actually reinforces it. If it were faster, more people would likely buy them.

If I want a relatively slow, light, NA car, why wouldn't I just buy a Miata?

I don't personally want a Miata for various reasons, but I'm just pointing out the competition they're putting themselves against by not putting a turbo on it.

[E92inNC]

In early 2017 right before I stumbled upon my E92 I went to test drive the facelift BRZ and didn’t trade in my E90 mainly cuz of the lack of power. The car was a good size for me and felt snug inside but not cramped, me being 5’9”. It definitely felt light and I like the handling but the resounding thing that stayed with me the days after was how long it took just getting up to any cruising speed wether it was 40, 50 or 70. I don’t pay much attention to the 0-60 times they all put out cuz I’m not going to be dumping the clutch at every light, you have to actually drive the car to get a feel of the ease at which it gets up to speed or how it is when you really get on it. It has the disadvantages of pretty much every JDM vs uS or Euro which is the lack of usable power down low (1-3k rpm)where it mostly gets used during normal driving

[supra93]

[Jeff01234567]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Doesn't invalidate my point. Actually reinforces it. If it were faster, more people would likely buy them.

If I want a relatively slow, light, NA car, why wouldn't I just buy a Miata?

I don't personally want a Miata for various reasons, but I'm just pointing out the competition they're putting themselves against by not putting a turbo on it.

Because the 86 has a fixed roof, rear seats, and usable trunk. I used to have an FR-S back in college and I was able to have that as my only car with no problems at all. The rear seats were cramped but usable in a pinch and if you fold down the rear seats, you can fit all sorts of things in the car that you wouldn't have imagine would be able to fit. This practical everyday-usefulness is non-existent in the Miata (which I also used to own so I know ).

[E90M3velocity]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Like the Miata, and the very original AE86, this car's never about 0-60, or straight line speed. Also, the aftermarket will be more than happy to accomodate you if that's your fancy.

Also, very likely to be geared long for economy.

Miata's hit 5.7 seconds for 0-60 stock when they got the updated Skyactive engine a few years ago plus retains its excellent handling. IMO its still the better choice with the right amount of seats among these type of personal sports cars (ex 240z and 300zxtt driver).

[jmg]

Originally Posted by XMetal

To echo kyriian's sentiment, a "sports car" is not all about 0-60, or straight line speed. Can your 4000lbs Mercedes GLC300 keep up with the Toyobaru when the road isn't straight? People get too caught up in the 0-60 times these days. Teenagers in their Corollas/Civics are trying to drag race me at stop lights all the time when I'm in the Mcoupe for some reasons.

I was at time trials the other night and the high horsepower Mustangs and Chargers were getting slower lap times than the 86's and Miatas. Instagram kids, hard parkers, and stoplight racing Vin Diesel superfans live in blissful ignorance of what a real sport car is for. That being said, just 50 more hp would make the 86 such a beast!

[supra93]

A slight drop.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...=144807&page=7

[fastboatster]

Not bad, but the old one looks better. The new one has Panamera headlights. While I do agree that power isn’t everything when it comes to sporty cars, I think the problem is that the engine is not that great. Afaik, it’s a Subaru 2.5 engine slightly warmed over from some of their appliances cars (non Wrx or anything) Yes, it’s NA which became a plus nowadays but torque delivery doesn’t seem to be that good from what I can see from the dyno graph. I think I have read somewhere that n52 engine weighs less than this engine while obviously making better torque and power due to VANOS, valvetronic and other tech.
Anyway, point is 2.5 is just not that great of an engine. They could put a 2.0 turbo from the wrx, that wouldn’t increase the price above 30k. They manage to sell wrxs for sub 30, so why couldn’t they do it with brz since it’s built on the same Impreza platform? In all honesty, there’s just no competition in the segment of “cheap” sporty coupes so they know they can get away if they cheap out.

[Fined]

It's a neat car with good updates. Seems to have the real sports car qualities. I do not think I'd have it over an ND2 RF if the spot in my garage is for a traditional sports car (small, light, 2 doors, 2 seats only).

[Alfisti]

Absolutely no way this thing should be turbo charged. But, ideally would like to see a second engine option with more punch or a performance pack that added some ponies.

Car has to be NA though, moment you add a blower it's all lost.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Absolutely no way this thing should be turbo charged. But, ideally would like to see a second engine option with more punch or a performance pack that added some ponies.

Car has to be NA though, moment you add a blower it's all lost.

^This, a tuned FA24 may work but it will get dangerously close to biting into Supra 2.0 territory. They'd likely push a TRD version with 10 extra horses and a bunch of TRD stuff that doesn't do very much.

TOMS did with the N086V using a tuned 2GR in the first gen, but doubt Toyota themselves would do that.

I rather see Toyota offer the stripper club racer model globally that offers steel wheels, no stereo, less sound dampening or A/C. Mazda did it with the Roadster NR-A, Mitsubishi also did with the EVO RS models. There was one made with the first gen (86 Racing, BRZ RA), I hope they do this again to the 2nd gen

[Humdizzle]

it looks good. i've said it before but its a true back to basics sports car. for just having pure fun its great. i had one about 4-5 years and found myself grabbing its keys over my GTR just because it was more fun around town and more involving to drive. In the rain its even more fun since you can do tiny drifts everywhere at 10-15 mph.

the problem is that for the money, it really lacks refinement for long distance driving. on the highway its buzzy due to the short 6th gear and lack of insulation. the stereo is total crap. interior trim pieces rattle. A same year civic / mazda 3 / corolla come in quite a bit cheaper and feel like luxury GT cars by comparison.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

it looks good. i've said it before but its a true back to basics sports car. for just having pure fun its great. i had one about 4-5 years and found myself grabbing its keys over my GTR just because it was more fun around town and more involving to drive. In the rain its even more fun since you can do tiny drifts everywhere at 10-15 mph.

the problem is that for the money, it really lacks refinement for long distance driving. on the highway its buzzy due to the short 6th gear and lack of insulation. the stereo is total crap. interior trim pieces rattle. A same year civic / mazda 3 / corolla come in quite a bit cheaper and feel like luxury GT cars by comparison.

I think you and I look at the opposite sides of the same $30k coin. You expect some refinement and luxury, I expect decent power. Meanwhile Toyota and Subaru tell us we can't have either.

[AlpineBoost]

Probably the minority here (and I'm a fan of just about everything having at least 1 turbo), but I'm glad this car will exist as-is from the manufacturer. I read that on the 1st gens, the BRZ had the better interior on the higher trims compared to the FRS/86, and hope that some of that lack of refinement talked about here won't really exist on the 2022 BRZ.

My first car was a '90 240SX 5MT. Learning to drive that car, and then progressing to more power, car after car, made me the driver that I am today. I don't think it's that great of an idea to hop into a 300+hp, rwd, turbo car for someone driving their first 'sportier' car, learning to drive a MT, or even learning to drive altogether. However, that was my experience, everyone is different, and there are cars out there for you if that's what you want.

Ours will likely see a built motor/turbo after a few years. For the immediate future my girl will daily it. She wants a coupe that's offered in manual, brand new, cheap-ish, light, has a back seat, fun to drive, etc.

Serious question, what other new, NA, RWD, < 3k lbs, 2+2 cars are out there for under $30k?...

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by WastegateRattle

Serious question, what other new, NA, RWD, < 3k lbs, 2+2 cars are out there for under $30k?...

Base Challenger SXT or the Camaro V6, both offering over 300 horsepower for about the same money, much more weight though
They do have great presence, and eat the BRZ/FRS all day long for breakfast in a straight line. But neither are known to be great at handling. I am talking strictly straight out of the box.

In that the 86/BRZ is again, closer to a MX-5, but then the MX5 is a 2 seater

So while we can say that the car could use more power, really it is unique in the market. Someone shopping for an American coupe isn't shopping at a Subaru/Toyota dealer, and someone buying an MX5 is buying a MX5

[5.M0NSTER]

You guys won’t like my answer... but why are we asking how many slow NA 4 seaters there are?

When for 36k you can have a car that weighs 3600 lbs and has over 450 hp with much better power to weight ratio. A full suspension swap on a Mustang turns it into a great handling car and costs under 3k. Way different league of car.

I’ve never been passed by a 86 on a track in a Mustang. Saw plenty in my rear view though.

[heavyD^2]

I've owned a few Mustangs and they are fun but they are bigger cars and you have to deal with the typical Ford shoddy build quality. This is a small, simple RWD car that is attainable to most people and I think that's a good thing.

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

You guys wonÂ’t like my answer... but why are we asking how many slow NA 4 seaters there are?

When for 36k you can have a car that weighs 3600 lbs and has over 450 hp with much better power to weight ratio. A full suspension swap on a Mustang turns it into a great handling car and costs under 3k. Way different league of car.

IÂ’ve never been passed by a 86 on a track in a Mustang. Saw plenty in my rear view though.

I ain't mad at ya. You're saying what I say 99.99% of the time. Reality is, there will always be drivers with less experience, or that just want a difference experience in a car than you and I, but still want to have a good time from point A to B. Their cars will likely never see the track, and they probably won't get into dick measuring competitions on the street.

This car is definitely not for me, but I think it fills a gap for what's available brand new. We could sit around all day and talk about taking X car for Y price and putting Z into it, if we are talking about building a bang for buck street car or track monster. Would be a pretty long list with few cars here on it.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ve never been passed by a 86 on a track in a Mustang. Saw plenty in my rear view though.

You are likely a better driver than the opposition, I've passed 911s, ferraris, and yes plenty of Mustangs as well in my piddly 133 wheel horsepower MX5, so honestly your argument is more just you being a better driver. I will concede power does help against those with much bigger egos than their skills. Getting stuck behind a 911 doing 20 every corner, but blow my doors off in the straight is not fun. I used to pull in for a drive through into the pits, just so I can get clear of any slow moving traffic.

We can all just agree to disagree, can we just be happy that any car manufacturer is still selling an enthusiast catering RWD, LSD, manual 2+2 for a modest cost? Rather than just another generic tech fest 4wd high riding crossover for some odd niche market no one has milked every last cent out of yet?

[R N M]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Base Challenger SXT or the Camaro V6, both offering over 300 horsepower for about the same money, much more weight though
They do have great presence, and eat the BRZ/FRS all day long for breakfast in a straight line. But neither are known to be great at handling. I am talking strictly straight out of the box.

In that the 86/BRZ is again, closer to a MX-5, but then the MX5 is a 2 seater

So while we can say that the car could use more power, really it is unique in the market. Someone shopping for an American coupe isn't shopping at a Subaru/Toyota dealer, and someone buying an MX5 is buying a MX5

Are you really comparing a Challenger to BRZ???

I owned the BRZ for 6 years while i had my F80 M3.
Compared to the M3 even it feels like a go kart. It’s hard to explain how GOOD the car drives - you really need to experience it yourself. The inputs - steering, shifter, turn-in etc are some of the best in any price range. The seating position, outward visibility etc are also some of the best and all for under $30k.

The only downside of the car is the engine. I like that they kept it NA but i wish it had more torque and better sound.

I looked at MANY cars to replace the BRZ and couldn’t really find a nimble dedicated sports car that doesn’t have huge compromises. I upgraded to 911 as that and Cayman are really the only cars that give u that feel of small go karts.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by kyriian

We can all just agree to disagree, can we just be happy that any car manufacturer is still selling an enthusiast catering RWD, LSD, manual 2+2 for a modest cost? Rather than just another generic tech fest 4wd high riding crossover for some odd niche market no one has milked every last cent out of yet?

Here we can agree. And the simple truth is that the aftermarket will come to the rescue of track rats seeking 80 extra wheel HP to make it competitive on the straights.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by kyriian

You are likely a better driver than the opposition, I've passed 911s, ferraris, and yes plenty of Mustangs as well in my piddly 133 wheel horsepower MX5, so honestly your argument is more just you being a better driver. I will concede power does help against those with much bigger egos than their skills. Getting stuck behind a 911 doing 20 every corner, but blow my doors off in the straight is not fun. I used to pull in for a drive through into the pits, just so I can get clear of any slow moving traffic.

Bit off topic, but I have been passed by a few MX5s. With engine swaps. The one that shocked me the most was LS swapped. Guy had to wear special shoes not to get burned.

The first 2-3 minutes of this video also show what a Miata can do with proper power. So hats off to the Miata. And to you as a driver when you can pass cars with more than 2x the HP.