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      08-06-2018, 06:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
Remember, it's not the price you pay now. It's the difference between what you pay now and what you'll sell her when that day comes.
It's true, you've not lost or made money until you sell.

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      08-06-2018, 06:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro View Post
I think the general consensus is that 911s just aren't worth the money - it's either all emotional or you pay the premium on the basis that they will hold their value.

It's mid 2018 and here in Australia, a manual 2006 991s (997.1) is US $80k

You can also get a 2016 manual M3 for US $70k - less than the 911 !!!

WTF??? - there's no way that a 12 year old 997 is worth $10k more than a F80 in what looks like immaculate condition.

Interestingly, over the weekend, i saw an article in the local papers which indicated that luxury car sales are down nearly 10% on last year.
This might indicate that as the new car prices start to soften, so would the used car prices. After all, when there's not much difference between a new model and a used one, why not get a new one?

I still like the 911, but i can't see the value anymore.
Overpriced where you are.

In the US it's easy to find 2006 997s in the $30k-50k range.
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      08-06-2018, 06:43 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro View Post
I think the general consensus is that 911s just aren't worth the money - it's either all emotional or you pay the premium on the basis that they will hold their value.

It's mid 2018 and here in Australia, a manual 2006 991s (997.1) is US $80k

You can also get a 2016 manual M3 for US $70k - less than the 911 !!!

WTF??? - there's no way that a 12 year old 997 is worth $10k more than a F80 in what looks like immaculate condition.

Interestingly, over the weekend, i saw an article in the local papers which indicated that luxury car sales are down nearly 10% on last year.
This might indicate that as the new car prices start to soften, so would the used car prices. After all, when there's not much difference between a new model and a used one, why not get a new one?

I still like the 911, but i can't see the value anymore.
It might not be worth it to you, but if someone is willing to pay that, then that's what it's worth.
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      08-06-2018, 06:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
It might not be worth it to you, but if someone is willing to pay that, then that's what it's worth.
LOL - can't argue with your logic. It's all based on supply and demand.
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      08-06-2018, 11:49 AM   #49
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I was able to test drive a 997.1 C2S this weekend (2005 with ~70,000km). I'm not sure if it is characteristic of 997.1s, but the interior did not age well as the plastics were extremely worn.

Nevertheless, I loved the car. I wish I could own both a 911 and an M3 simultaneously. Each has its pros and cons. The most attractive thing about the 911 was the weight - which contributes to the car feeling more like a true "sports car" as it is a lot more nimble.

This particularly 2005 was almost double the price of my 2008 M3. I guess people must really love 997s to justify that kind of coin, or they fail to realize how great of a bargain the E9x M3 is .
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      08-07-2018, 01:22 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
^ this. And in my opinion, the 991 is a vastly improved car over the 997. I feel the quality of the interior and other bits are a direct comparison to the new BMW's with this model.
Yeah the interior hit me like a punch in the face, talk about low rent!!!!

I was surprised how agricultural it was, hard plastics, really sparse, i mean it had aircon and nav but that's it, materials were very low rent ... hard steering wheel etc.

But dat engine! I mean wowsers, what a mill, even in base guise. Such a noise, so sweet, mechanical harmony it was. PDK perfect for me, I can let it do it's business or take over whenever I like. Had the 6 year old in the back, went under a bridge and down shifted three gears and he was enthralled, absolutely loved it.

REALLY reminded me of my 1971 Alfa Giulia coupe, similar size and similarly stiff on crappy roads. Big difference being the engine of course.

I would seriously, seriously consider a 2013+ 917 series Carrera S vert.
Seriously.

Oh and here's my note to the rental place post rental .......

"I'll pay $19 for the extra mileage but in reality the car has it's faults.

Firstly i was told is was a Carrera S, when it's the entry level Carrera.

More importantly, the tyres on the vehicle are not road worthy. The rears are really bad, I measured them a 2 to 3 32nds of tread which is below road worthiness.

The fronts are absolutely illegal, virtually zero tread and crows feet all over them which means they are the original tyres it came with from new some 7 years ago and the tyre has hardened. I was very conscience of this going through corners, had to temper things quite a bit because I was afraid of binning it.

TBH the tyres represent a pretty serious liability concern, if it rains this car will be seriously tricky to drive, if someone crashes it and is hurt i suspect your insurance agency will start asking questions about the condition of the tyres.

I will do this again though, enjoyed it, but next time i will inspect the vehicle before renting".
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      08-07-2018, 03:43 PM   #51
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I agree the 991 interior is a lot better than the 997. But go sit in a 996 and the 997 is 10x better. It is all relative.
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      08-07-2018, 04:15 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I agree the 991 interior is a lot better than the 997. But go sit in a 996 and the 997 is 10x better. It is all relative.
I would 100% agree. I think the premise, however, is that it is ridiculous that an interior of such poor quality is in a vehicle that cost so much new. The level it wears out over time is abysmal as well. Again, I love Porsche, but just don't see where the money is going for these things, and the recent huge jump in used 996 and 997 prices just baffles me. I mean, I understand the rationale of why the prices are what they are, I just don't agree with it - but, the markets have spoken, so hey, what do I know.
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      08-07-2018, 04:16 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
NO.

Have driven loads of Porsches all different eras and types. Good cars. Massively overhyped.

For those budgets I have a list a mile long of "other" classic cars I'd rather buy.

People love to love them because they're told to. I acknowledge they are well made and well engineered but just not for me. Porsches are like the Hollywood version of "sports cars".
I agree with you. The only Porsche I've ever driven was a 997.1 GT3, and while it's a great car, I'm not understanding the hype.
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      08-07-2018, 04:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I would 100% agree. I think the premise, however, is that it is ridiculous that an interior of such poor quality is in a vehicle that cost so much new. The level it wears out over time is abysmal as well. Again, I love Porsche, but just don't see where the money is going for these things, and the recent huge jump in used 996 and 997 prices just baffles me. I mean, I understand the rationale of why the prices are what they are, I just don't agree with it - but, the markets have spoken, so hey, what do I know.
I've found that "higher end" materials don't necessarily mean more durable or better quality. Porsche uses pretty high end leather that is minimally processed, is soft and warm to the touch. But, it is no where as durable as the cheap treated and plasticized leather in a Camry. So when new, the materials and such are very nice and feel good. But after a couple of years, the wear is terrible. The cheap leather in the Camry soldiers on and still looks like new. Ever see what a leather dash looks like when its old? The leather shrinks, discolors and falls apart.

That's just materials. The Porsche design has come a long way. I think they really only started to pay attention to designing nice interiors from the 997 and up.
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      08-07-2018, 11:58 PM   #55
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Quality to me is synonymous with reliability. It doesn't mean higher end materials, it means things that don't break down, whether they are mechanical or just trim. Higher end materials means higher end materials, but if it's high quality, I expect it to hold up for years.
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      08-08-2018, 12:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Quality to me is synonymous with reliability. It doesn't mean higher end materials, it means things that don't break down, whether they are mechanical or just trim. Higher end materials means higher end materials, but if it's high quality, I expect it to hold up for years.
Interesting perspective. I can think of several things (beyond automotive) that I consider high quality that don't necessarily have superior reliability. Maybe I'm equating quality with performance too much, but perhaps you're not relating performance with quality enough? Like I said... Interesting. Thanks for making me think.
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      08-08-2018, 04:17 AM   #57
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Was looking at 911s for a brief moment before I purchased the M3.

991.1 base model with a manual might have been a good investment, but are hard to find even here in Europe (... at a decent price at least).

Good examples of 997.2 are even more overpriced, 996s are OKAY price-wise, but tend to have a lot of maintenance issues.

Bottom line: 911s are worth what people pay for them, I couldn't justify to buy one. The E92 was a more appealing car for my personal situation.
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      08-08-2018, 07:41 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I've found that "higher end" materials don't necessarily mean more durable or better quality. Porsche uses pretty high end leather that is minimally processed, is soft and warm to the touch. But, it is no where as durable as the cheap treated and plasticized leather in a Camry. So when new, the materials and such are very nice and feel good. But after a couple of years, the wear is terrible. The cheap leather in the Camry soldiers on and still looks like new. Ever see what a leather dash looks like when its old? The leather shrinks, discolors and falls apart.

That's just materials. The Porsche design has come a long way. I think they really only started to pay attention to designing nice interiors from the 997 and up.
The focus on making the 911 a luxury touring car started with the 996, prior to that I think the focus was on it being a sports car. Look at the 993, the door mirrors aren't symmetrical so they function, the pedals were offset to keep the car small and light, the wipers start on the drivers side to clear his/her view first. Thats why folks loved Porsche, when they went to the 996 they started heading down the path of luxury and performance. That's not a bad thing, just a change in philosophy.
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      08-08-2018, 08:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Interesting perspective. I can think of several things (beyond automotive) that I consider high quality that don't necessarily have superior reliability. Maybe I'm equating quality with performance too much, but perhaps you're not relating performance with quality enough? Like I said... Interesting. Thanks for making me think.
Part of it is because from my walk of life, I equate "quality control" with both production, and the design process. If designed correctly, the right materials are speced, the correct dimensions, the right fittings, etc, and produced correctly, no voids, correct tolerances, etc., then it should last a long time, because of the quality in those processes. The more high-end, the more performance I'd expect, or less weight, or something like that, but just because there is performance, doesn't mean there is quality or reliability IMO.
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      08-10-2018, 05:12 AM   #60
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they wont be investment.. it ll be pleasure only and paying on everything at least x2-3 on BMW..
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      08-10-2018, 08:04 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I agree with all of the above. To add another comment here, obviously one has to compare the 991 to a current F series BMW to really put apples to apples.

Here, the price variance becomes even more apparent.

I've driven a 2015 991 C4S and a 2015 M4 back to back. Honestly, the Porsche was a nicer car in every aspect. It felt a little bit quicker, the interior items were of a slightly higher quality, the leather was a bit nicer, the carpet a bit nicer, the door closed with a higher quality sound and feel. The car handled in a more sprightly and sporty fashion than the BMW. But.... it was literally double the price!! $89K vs $45K for the M4! That to me, was just insane. I mean, it was better, but just a bit - not night and day.

I could justify spending maybe 10 or even 20 percent more, but spending twice the price just seemed like a total rip off to me.
M4 are already $45k cause they are not very good in my opinion as a previous owner.
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      08-10-2018, 11:23 AM   #62
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A mid to low mile 2013 F10 M5 is now the same price as a 2013 M3 !! Both around the low 40k mark. M4's and M2's will follow that path. There really isn't anything special about them or the N55/S55 motor.

modern cars are getting too refined, turbos are blunting the throttle response and sound. sure turbo cars can be made fast and put up numbers but in my opinion they just don't feel as good to drive. I think a lot of the price jumps you are seeing in older BMW M cars and Porsche's reflect this. NA cars are dying and people are paying a lot to get there hands on them.
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      08-11-2018, 11:29 PM   #63
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ICE is dying.
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      08-12-2018, 05:19 PM   #64
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All I can say is I bought my 991.1S four and a half years ago with 11k on it and I don't plan on ever selling it. I've never had a car this long, I'm at 66k and the older it gets the better it gets.
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      08-12-2018, 06:02 PM   #65
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The 997 generation of the 911 is my absolute favorite. Very mechanical, but also capable of having some modern creature comforts, like Bluetooth and a basic navigation. 997.1s can be had for low to mid 30k. The updated engine and interior of the 997.2 can be had for 40-50k.
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      08-14-2018, 05:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erictrainer View Post
I've asked myself very similar question 100 times....997.1 turbo (75K) or brand new F80. I still don't know the answer, but my conclusion is that I would do it just to switch it up. I personally don't believe the turbo 911 is much faster, if any, but that doesn't matter to me because both cars are fast enough anyway. The M3 is a fun to drive brute, and the turbo is fun to drive in its own right because of how light it is or feels. With all that said at this point it is a better value proposition to buy the turbo because of a flattened depreciation curve. Finally I would not buy a non turbo 997, I believe it will leave you wanting more, it will feel old and slow, and I don't believe in a "charming" way. In your situation let me steer you towards an S2000 an open a whole new can of worms...
The answer for the op and erictrainer is the same...

If you are going to drive it everyday, get the M2, M3, or M4 (new or gently used).

If its going to be an extra car, get the 997 as they are likely done depreciating (I'm guessing we will see prices drop with the next notable stock market and/or housing market correction). Mileage kills Porsches on resale, so if you are putting on 10k+ mi a year, you will still see depreciation.

FYI, I had a 997.2 base 6-speed as a weekend car, and decided to sell it and get a 2018 M2 to daily drive for the same money. While the 997.2 had a level of specialness and I loved the classic 911 look, I don't think the M2 is any worse of a car. The M2 is ~10% or 300lbs heavier but it has 20hp and 55 ft/lb more and my butt dyno says the M2 is faster in most situations. The M2 hides its weight well. The only things I miss from driving the 911 are nimbleness (largely due to shorter wheelbase) and the feeling of how planted the rear is when turning/accelerating. In my opinion, the M2 is 95% of the driving experience in a newer more daily drivable car.

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