Small RWD, non-luxury sedan?

[jpnh]

Sorry for the tangent but an M240 2 door hatch would be awesome

[GuidoK]

Here you go:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...nce/index.html

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Here you go:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...nce/index.html

Tease.....you get so many fun cars in Europe that the bean counters in the US refuse to bring to the US

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Tease.....you get so many fun cars in Europe that the bean counters in the US refuse to bring to the US

Maybe, but this car is more expensive than a corvette stingray...

[ASAP]

I think the main reason that this does not exists is because it is much easier to pass on the R&D costs of a RWD architecture into a higher priced luxury vehicle... a solid performance sedan with RWD, would cost a lot to produce but couldn't be priced over 30K to sell... that is essentially top of the line Accord pricing or base 320i pricing... in other words a FWD econo car or an entry level luxury car... there is simply no space, plan or business case for such a vehicle... it wouldnt sell well and would be expensive to create. People that want a RWD engaging vehicle can usually spend far more on a car and that is why the Luxury package works. The FRS is arguably the closest thing that I can think of... and guess what it comes with a shitty 2.0L boxer motor, a sedan would be even heavier weight... oh and u want a nice turbo motor as well? it just simply can't happen at a reasonable price level.

An optimal vehicle would be 3200 lbs, 300hp, rwd, 6 speed manual sedan that looks good and has a solid suspension and LSD... there is absolutely no way a car like this could cost under $40k? And at 40k, you think people would be ok with cheap plastics inside? no, not a chance

[tjswarbrick]

Sounds a lot like a WRX.
They just went AWD instead of RWD. Which probably opened up the market enough to make a business case for it.

[David70]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I think the main reason that this does not exists is because it is much easier to pass on the R&D costs of a RWD architecture into a higher priced luxury vehicle... a solid performance sedan with RWD, would cost a lot to produce but couldn't be priced over 30K to sell... that is essentially top of the line Accord pricing or base 320i pricing... in other words a FWD econo car or an entry level luxury car... there is simply no space, plan or business case for such a vehicle... it wouldnt sell well and would be expensive to create. People that want a RWD engaging vehicle can usually spend far more on a car and that is why the Luxury package works. The FRS is arguably the closest thing that I can think of... and guess what it comes with a shitty 2.0L boxer motor, a sedan would be even heavier weight... oh and u want a nice turbo motor as well? it just simply can't happen at a reasonable price level.

An optimal vehicle would be 3200 lbs, 300hp, rwd, 6 speed manual sedan that looks good and has a solid suspension and LSD... there is absolutely no way a car like this could cost under $40k? And at 40k, you think people would be ok with cheap plastics inside? no, not a chance

X2. The market at the price it would be sold at just doesn't exist.

Buy a Chevy SS - V-8 4 door sedan and it starts at $46k and virtually no one buys it - selling less than 3k per year.

Put a V-6 in it and the price drops some but not enough that it makes a big difference and the cost compared to the ATS isn't much.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I think the main reason that this does not exists is because it is much easier to pass on the R&D costs of a RWD architecture into a higher priced luxury vehicle... a solid performance sedan with RWD, would cost a lot to produce but couldn't be priced over 30K to sell... that is essentially top of the line Accord pricing or base 320i pricing... in other words a FWD econo car or an entry level luxury car... there is simply no space, plan or business case for such a vehicle... it wouldnt sell well and would be expensive to create.

That's part of it, but it still doesn't explain why pony cars exist and are profitable at their price-point. Apparently, while the "small" RWD coupe market is - what, like 200,000 units a year between the Mustang and Camaro? - the market for a similar sedan would be so much smaller than that that no one could make any money on it. Or so it seems.

Originally Posted by tjswarbrick

Sounds a lot like a WRX.
They just went AWD instead of RWD. Which probably opened up the market enough to make a business case for it.

If the ~$40k WRX STi had +100hp or so, like a ~$40k Mustang GT, it would be nearly perfect, yes. Even if it were up closer $50k, with the AWD thrown in, that would still a very attractive package I'd think.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by mxa121

No matter where I turn on forums, eventually people long for the "E46 style" vehicle. BMW inflated the 3 series too much.

Ultimately, this is what the 2 series needs to evolve into. BMW could make lots of money making a 2 series sedan. I believe they could sell many many 2.0L autos which would allow them to make a hotter 3.0L turbo manual model for us nuts.

Maybe BMW will rethink a 2er sedan with the success of the Audi A3/S3. And a real one, not that FWD 1er sedan China is getting.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Maybe BMW will rethink a 2er sedan with the success of the Audi A3/S3.

There is a 2er sedan but it's fwd. The rwd 2er is 3,500+ pounds. Same problem the Chevy SS has, its way too fat to be fun.

Your edit negates my fwd comment.

[Sedoy]

Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T should be pretty close (minus MT):

~40k Base price
RWD
280 hp, 306 lb-ft
182.8" long
optional LSD
great suspension
non-luxury

Originally Posted by ASAP

An optimal vehicle would be 3200 lbs, 300hp, rwd, 6 speed manual sedan that looks good and has a solid suspension and LSD... there is absolutely no way a car like this could cost under $40k? And at 40k, you think people would be ok with cheap plastics inside? no, not a chance

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T should be pretty close (minus MT):

~40k Base price
RWD
280 hp, 306 lb-ft
182.8" long
optional LSD
great suspension
non-luxury

a giulia is luxury, and 2k for an lsd.., ur minimum mid 40s... thats pushing it, as u r in 3 series territory

[FriskyDingo]

Fwiw, I agree. I would LOVE an affordable, no frills RWD sedan as a DD. Something the size of the E90. I don't need 20 cameras, safety systems that practically drive the car, night vision, or any of that bullshit. I don't even need dynamic lights, a sunroof, or leather. Give me a decent stereo w/ bluetooth/phone connectivity, pwr locks/windows, cruise, push-to-start (would be nice) and a manual trans with an engine that's at least close to 300hp, and I'm sold. Priced in the low-mid 30's. There'd be no shortage of buyers for it.


The SS is a phenomenal car (I like to call it the M5 BMW doesn't build anymore), but it's priced rather ambitiously, they don't market the car at all, it's too big for some, it doesn't have any options or trims, it's still kinda dated, there's no incentives on it, and it's very hard to find with a manual. GM should have made a model with less content and a 5.3 in it. That would have sold in far greater numbers.

[GottWhat]

An base ATS might be the closest you will get from GM. But I think you can get one with a turbo-4, 6-speed manual and Brembo brakes

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I don't think you understand how vehicle chassis work.

He obviously doesn't.

[ShakyDog]

For every one of us car enthusiast, there are 1.2 million people that just own a car to get from point A to point B and could care less how it drives, they just want it to look good. Manuals do not exist in cars in the US anymore, they are rare as Unicorn poop.
I see so many BMW drivers, I will talk to many and 80% to 90% do not even know a thing about what they are driving.
So, no not one car manufacture is going to take a gamble on producing a RWD sedan for the US market. Look at the Scion/Subaru FRS platform, I do not see them producing this car much longer. Look at the nice little sports car that Lexus makes, they do not offer one car in the US market with a manual. If were are going to dream, dream big.

Does Nissan still make the Maxima in RWD, manual format? or did it change to be a glorified Ultama FWD?

Steve

[GottWhat]

Originally Posted by ShakyDog

Does Nissan still make the Maxima in RWD, manual format? or did it change to be a glorified Ultama FWD?

Not only is the Maxima FWD, it is CVT only. Yes, shares platforms with Altima.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ShakyDog

Does Nissan still make the Maxima in RWD, manual format? or did it change to be a glorified Ultama FWD?

You'd only have to go back 32 years to see the last of the RWD Maximas on a new car lot.

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/maxima/history/

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by GottWhat

Not only is the Maxima FWD, it is CVT only. Yes, shares platforms with Altima.

Ewww.

[GottWhat]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Ewww.

Very much so.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GottWhat

An base ATS might be the closest you will get from GM. But I think you can get one with a turbo-4, 6-speed manual and Brembo brakes

He obviously doesn't.

And an LSD.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by ASAP

a giulia is luxury, and 2k for an lsd.., ur minimum mid 40s... thats pushing it, as u r in 3 series territory

You say that like the 3er is a better car. The ATS and Giulia are both on a better chassis, but the Cadillac has an awful interior and poor manual transmissions and the 2.0T is a bit of a let down.

The Alfa might be the winner if they'd have brought the manual over.

But ultimately, I'd still like something smaller and lighter. Say 2,900 pounds and 260-270hp. A WRX motor in the BRZ would be just about perfect. Crap interior and all.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You say that like the 3er is a better car. The ATS and Giulia are both on a better chassis, but the Cadillac has an awful interior and poor manual transmissions and the 2.0T is a bit of a let down.

The Alfa might be the winner if they'd have brought the manual over.

But ultimately, I'd still like something smaller and lighter. Say 2,900 pounds and 260-270hp. A WRX motor in the BRZ would be just about perfect. Crap interior and all.

Just sayin......