Official Road Cycling Thread

Mr Tonka · 07-04-2017, 10:29 PM

This is a gif made up of individual frames between seconds 20 and 21 from the video above.

The gif pauses on the frame where you can best see Cav's hood hooked on Sagan's right wrist/forearm. From there you can watch his arm get pulled away from him. Notice his core is directly over his bike until the later part of the gif. That's because Cav's bike is pulling Sagan over towards to his right. Once Cav's bike releases from Sagan's arm, you'll see Sagan's arm drop down a bit then stay out as he regains his balance. If you've ever messed around with your bros while biking and you want to deflect their path, you put your weight behind your shoulder or arm. Sagan's weight was pulled towards Cav as he went down, due to his bars hooking Sagan's arm.

Click on the video above at second 19 and go through it click by click on the slider. Cav rode up from behind and the gap began to close. Cav appears to lean into Sagan while giving him audible warning of his position. At the same time his bars ride under Sagan's arm and gets hooked. Sagan's elbow comes up in order to get his arm over the hoods. Once it does, Cav's wheel turns right and he plows into the crowd barrier.

To make Sagan look even worse is his extraordinary biking handling skills. If it had been another rider and they went down, we'd likely be talking about how reckless Cav was with that move. Instead the UCI took action without proper investigation or even interviewing either rider.

This is the frame where you can best see Cav's bar hook Sagan's arm. Go back to the video and look at the shadows on the ground to get the sun's location. Cav's hood is lighted by the sun which means its at least even with if not further forward than Sagan's arm, otherwise it would be in shadow.

M_Six · 07-04-2017, 10:43 PM

That does make it look like Cav's fault.

wdb · 07-05-2017, 08:57 AM

But if you roll the tape back farther you see Sagan cutting towards the barrier, forcing Cav into an impossible gap. This is one that will be discussed and disputed until the end of time.

Considering the footage and the elbow being out, I think the Tour officials had to take some kind of action. I think DQ is very harsh. Then again what would I think if Sagan was lined up at the start today while Cavendish watched from the hospital? It's a tough call for everyone.

ciaranob · 07-05-2017, 12:31 PM

Having similarly reviewed the frame by frame vid, I firmly agree that Cav essentially imitated the incident out of desperation to get past and clearly leaned in to Sagan long before any elbow appeared (as I noted in my previous post). I also buy in to the observation that Sagan's elbow movement is at least in part simply for balance, a natural re-action, but do suspect that there is still a little too aggressive movement and perhaps still some overreaction in there - but this is sprinting, happens all the time.

Definitely an over-harsh decision to disqualify and given Cav's actions and then subsequently not mentioning any action on his part in interviews I have seen makes me shift even more to Sagan's side on this.

All a bit moot at this point I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

This is a gif made up of individual frames between seconds 20 and 21 from the video above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_Six

That does make it look like Cav's fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdb

But if you roll the tape back farther you see Sagan cutting towards the barrier, forcing Cav into an impossible gap. This is one that will be discussed and disputed until the end of time.

Considering the footage and the elbow being out, I think the Tour officials had to take some kind of action. I think DQ is very harsh. Then again what would I think if Sagan was lined up at the start today while Cavendish watched from the hospital? It's a tough call for everyone.

Mr Tonka · 07-05-2017, 02:19 PM

My main gripe is pretty much what most other people's are. The rules get enforced haphazardly by the UCI in a gestapo like fashion. There are rules that state once the sprint begins, your are supposed to hold a straight line. Really? When is the last time there was no change in line by any one sprinting to the finish? Never is likely a truthful answer. The race winner (the French national champ) was the only one to break his line in the stage 4 finish. And with a little in depth analysis, they could have determined that the elbow was not a violent act. Take away the violent act and the line holding rule, since he held his like more so than others in the sprint and what reason is there to DQ Sagan? Emotions? To make a statement? To appease Dimension Data's director? I just don't get it.

If you back the footage up and look at Demare he cuts across another rider's wheel impeding his progress and causing him to become unbalanced (stops pedaling and left knee out for balance). That's not holding his line. What is interesting about his move is that he had double the space Cav had between the rider in front of him and the barriers yet, he chose to swerve left behind that rider for more open road. ...This brings two points to the front for me.

1. Demare leaving the space in front of him essentially made riding along the barrier Sagan's only real line choice with a chance to win, which is why he drifted closer to the barrier while Cav was moving in from behind him.

2. Demare must have felt the gap in front of him between the rider and the barrier was not a safe bet and swerved left to opt for a clearer line. This casts even more of a negative shadow on Cav's decision to attempt to pass in a much smaller gap between Sagan and the barrier. ....BUT, taking the result of the first point into account; riders don't always get to choose their ideal line when sprinting for the finish.

I can't fault Cav for going for it. I can't fault Sagan for going for it. This in my mind, makes it a racing incident and should be devoid of any repercussions.

M_Six · 07-05-2017, 02:53 PM

Same thing happens in Formula One. Rules and penalties are haphazardly and unfairly applied. Makes it hard to be a fan, sometimes.

///M Power-Belgium · 07-05-2017, 03:15 PM

1988...The world championship in Ronse (Belgium)
Another elbow , but the most famous elbow of the world !

Claude Criquielion (Belgian) vs Steve Bauer (Canadian)

///M Power-Belgium · 07-06-2017, 01:52 PM

TDF-Stage 6 from today ...
It was an easy win for Marcel Kittel , but with Sagan, Kittel would be in Hospital now !

wdb · 07-06-2017, 09:35 PM

The more I watch it the less I blame Sagan. What a shame.

dc503 · 07-07-2017, 12:53 PM

Now today was a nice sprint!

Rayscott · 07-09-2017, 09:25 AM

Cav was invading Sagans space and I side with Sagan on this one. Kudos to Sagan for seeking out Cav after the race and apologizing then again the next day. This is part of competitive cycling. You take risks and sometimes they don't pay off. Same thing happened again when a rider tried to squeeze by on the right and caught a spectators arm hanging over the barrier.

Rayscott · 07-09-2017, 09:34 AM

Speaking of crashes. I crashed yesterday in a group ride. My fault, I was reaching down for my water bottle, dropped it and boom I went down hard and hit my head and rest of my body on the road. I was knocked unconscious and a passing EMT called for an ambulance. I came to in the hospital. Lots of road rash and sore ribs. Cat Scan and MRI showed no damage to brain or ribs. I was very lucky. The ER Doc said the helmet saved my life. I also had a Road ID bracelet on and the ambulance driver pulled up all my vital stats and emergency contact information from it. I have a Giro helmet with the MIPS cage inside. I would highly recommend it as well as the Road ID bracelet especially if you crash while riding alone.

trj3 · 07-09-2017, 09:45 AM

Specialized Tarmac. Love it. Been riding 30 yrs.... Watching the tour right now!!!

leo95se · 07-09-2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayscott

Speaking of crashes. I crashed yesterday in a group ride. My fault, I was reaching down for my water bottle, dropped it and boom I went down hard and hit my head and rest of my body on the road. I was knocked unconscious and a passing EMT called for an ambulance. I came to in the hospital. Lots of road rash and sore ribs. Cat Scan and MRI showed no damage to brain or ribs. I was very lucky. The ER Doc said the helmet saved my life. I also had a Road ID bracelet on and the ambulance driver pulled up all my vital stats and emergency contact information from it. I have a Giro helmet with the MIPS cage inside. I would highly recommend it as well as the Road ID bracelet especially if you crash while riding alone.

wow. glad youre ok! no damaged ego, so youll be up and at em in no time

agree on the road ID. i keep it wrapped around my frame

M4Now! · 07-09-2017, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leo95se

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayscott

Speaking of crashes. I crashed yesterday in a group ride. My fault, I was reaching down for my water bottle, dropped it and boom I went down hard and hit my head and rest of my body on the road. I was knocked unconscious and a passing EMT called for an ambulance. I came to in the hospital. Lots of road rash and sore ribs. Cat Scan and MRI showed no damage to brain or ribs. I was very lucky. The ER Doc said the helmet saved my life. I also had a Road ID bracelet on and the ambulance driver pulled up all my vital stats and emergency contact information from it. I have a Giro helmet with the MIPS cage inside. I would highly recommend it as well as the Road ID bracelet especially if you crash while riding alone.

wow. glad youre ok! no damaged ego, so youll be up and at em in no time

agree on the road ID. i keep it wrapped around my frame

You keep it around your frame? I don't know that an EMT would think to look there... Mine is around my ankle, don't even feel it.

Cheers

Rayscott · 07-09-2017, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leo95se

wow. glad youre ok! no damaged ego, so youll be up and at em in no time

agree on the road ID. i keep it wrapped around my frame

I'm all good thanks. Bike going to bike shop tomorrow to fix some broken items and check the carbon fiber frame for any cracks. I won't need it for a while. My road ID goes on my wrist. Road ID even sent me an alert that my Road ID info was accessed.

///M Power-Belgium · 07-09-2017, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayscott

I'm all good thanks. Bike going to bike shop tomorrow to fix some broken items and check the carbon fiber frame for any cracks. I won't need it for a while. My road ID goes on my wrist. Road ID even sent me an alert that my Road ID info was accessed.

The downhill crash from Richie Porte , good to hear he's +/- ok ...

dc503 · 07-09-2017, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayscott

I'm all good thanks. Bike going to bike shop tomorrow to fix some broken items and check the carbon fiber frame for any cracks. I won't need it for a while. My road ID goes on my wrist. Road ID even sent me an alert that my Road ID info was accessed.

Glad to hear your injuries weren't worse. Keep an eye on things especially since you lost consciousness and broke a helmet, that's a serious impact to subject your head to, MIPS or not.

M_Six · 07-09-2017, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc503

Glad to hear your injuries weren't worse. Keep an eye on things especially since you lost consciousness and broke a helmet, that's a serious impact to subject your head to, MIPS or not.

This. Glad you're ok, but don't dismiss weird symptoms in the next few weeks.

M_Six · 07-10-2017, 05:18 PM

Ouch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5ec27aaacfcc

///M Power-Belgium · 07-10-2017, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_Six

Ouch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5ec27aaacfcc

Wow !?!?

wdb · 07-11-2017, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_Six

Ouch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5ec27aaacfcc

Ouch indeed. Not excusing the driver in any way but I wonder why they didn't go single file?

07-04-2017, 10:29 PM	#573
Mr Tonka is probably out riding. 6059 Rep 2,292 Posts Drives: Something Italian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Sweatypeninsula iTrader: (0)	This is a gif made up of individual frames between seconds 20 and 21 from the video above. The gif pauses on the frame where you can best see Cav's hood hooked on Sagan's right wrist/forearm. From there you can watch his arm get pulled away from him. Notice his core is directly over his bike until the later part of the gif. That's because Cav's bike is pulling Sagan over towards to his right. Once Cav's bike releases from Sagan's arm, you'll see Sagan's arm drop down a bit then stay out as he regains his balance. If you've ever messed around with your bros while biking and you want to deflect their path, you put your weight behind your shoulder or arm. Sagan's weight was pulled towards Cav as he went down, due to his bars hooking Sagan's arm. Click on the video above at second 19 and go through it click by click on the slider. Cav rode up from behind and the gap began to close. Cav appears to lean into Sagan while giving him audible warning of his position. At the same time his bars ride under Sagan's arm and gets hooked. Sagan's elbow comes up in order to get his arm over the hoods. Once it does, Cav's wheel turns right and he plows into the crowd barrier. To make Sagan look even worse is his extraordinary biking handling skills. If it had been another rider and they went down, we'd likely be talking about how reckless Cav was with that move. Instead the UCI took action without proper investigation or even interviewing either rider. This is the frame where you can best see Cav's bar hook Sagan's arm. Go back to the video and look at the shadows on the ground to get the sun's location. Cav's hood is lighted by the sun which means its at least even with if not further forward than Sagan's arm, otherwise it would be in shadow. __________________ "There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice. -Charles de Secondat"
	Appreciate 2 M_Six19211.00 ciaranob754.50 Quote

07-04-2017, 10:43 PM	#574
M_Six Free Thinker 19211 Rep 7,544 Posts Drives: 2016 MB GLC300 4matic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Foothills of Mt Level iTrader: (0)	That does make it look like Cav's fault. __________________ Mark markj.pics "Life is uncertain, eat bacon now." -UncleWede
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07-05-2017, 08:57 AM	#575
wdb dances with roads 5075 Rep 4,130 Posts Drives: '07 E86, '02 996, '95 Seven Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: the perimeter iTrader: (4)	But if you roll the tape back farther you see Sagan cutting towards the barrier, forcing Cav into an impossible gap. This is one that will be discussed and disputed until the end of time. Considering the footage and the elbow being out, I think the Tour officials had to take some kind of action. I think DQ is very harsh. Then again what would I think if Sagan was lined up at the start today while Cavendish watched from the hospital? It's a tough call for everyone.
	Appreciate 1 Mr Tonka6059.00 Quote

07-05-2017, 02:19 PM	#577
Mr Tonka is probably out riding. 6059 Rep 2,292 Posts Drives: Something Italian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Sweatypeninsula iTrader: (0)	My main gripe is pretty much what most other people's are. The rules get enforced haphazardly by the UCI in a gestapo like fashion. There are rules that state once the sprint begins, your are supposed to hold a straight line. Really? When is the last time there was no change in line by any one sprinting to the finish? Never is likely a truthful answer. The race winner (the French national champ) was the only one to break his line in the stage 4 finish. And with a little in depth analysis, they could have determined that the elbow was not a violent act. Take away the violent act and the line holding rule, since he held his like more so than others in the sprint and what reason is there to DQ Sagan? Emotions? To make a statement? To appease Dimension Data's director? I just don't get it. If you back the footage up and look at Demare he cuts across another rider's wheel impeding his progress and causing him to become unbalanced (stops pedaling and left knee out for balance). That's not holding his line. What is interesting about his move is that he had double the space Cav had between the rider in front of him and the barriers yet, he chose to swerve left behind that rider for more open road. ...This brings two points to the front for me. 1. Demare leaving the space in front of him essentially made riding along the barrier Sagan's only real line choice with a chance to win, which is why he drifted closer to the barrier while Cav was moving in from behind him. 2. Demare must have felt the gap in front of him between the rider and the barrier was not a safe bet and swerved left to opt for a clearer line. This casts even more of a negative shadow on Cav's decision to attempt to pass in a much smaller gap between Sagan and the barrier. ....BUT, taking the result of the first point into account; riders don't always get to choose their ideal line when sprinting for the finish. I can't fault Cav for going for it. I can't fault Sagan for going for it. This in my mind, makes it a racing incident and should be devoid of any repercussions. __________________ "There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice. -Charles de Secondat"
	Appreciate 1 ciaranob754.50 Quote

07-05-2017, 02:53 PM	#578
M_Six Free Thinker 19211 Rep 7,544 Posts Drives: 2016 MB GLC300 4matic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Foothills of Mt Level iTrader: (0)	Same thing happens in Formula One. Rules and penalties are haphazardly and unfairly applied. Makes it hard to be a fan, sometimes. __________________ Mark markj.pics "Life is uncertain, eat bacon now." -UncleWede
	Appreciate 2 ciaranob754.50 Mr Tonka6059.00 Quote

07-05-2017, 03:15 PM	#579
///M Power-Belgium General 70586 Rep 26,626 Posts Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Belgium iTrader: (0)	1988...The world championship in Ronse (Belgium) Another elbow , but the most famous elbow of the world ! Claude Criquielion (Belgian) vs Steve Bauer (Canadian) __________________ "MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022+2023 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
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07-06-2017, 01:52 PM	#580
///M Power-Belgium General 70586 Rep 26,626 Posts Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Belgium iTrader: (0)	TDF-Stage 6 from today ... It was an easy win for Marcel Kittel , but with Sagan, Kittel would be in Hospital now ! __________________ "MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022+2023 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
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07-06-2017, 09:35 PM	#581
wdb dances with roads 5075 Rep 4,130 Posts Drives: '07 E86, '02 996, '95 Seven Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: the perimeter iTrader: (4)	The more I watch it the less I blame Sagan. What a shame.
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07-07-2017, 12:53 PM	#582
dc503 First Lieutenant 142 Rep 349 Posts Drives: 340i Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Reston, VA iTrader: (3)	Now today was a nice sprint! __________________ IG: LBR_uno
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07-09-2017, 09:25 AM	#583
Rayscott Major 378 Rep 1,154 Posts Drives: BMW 228ix Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Lewes DE iTrader: (0)	Cav was invading Sagans space and I side with Sagan on this one. Kudos to Sagan for seeking out Cav after the race and apologizing then again the next day. This is part of competitive cycling. You take risks and sometimes they don't pay off. Same thing happened again when a rider tried to squeeze by on the right and caught a spectators arm hanging over the barrier.
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07-09-2017, 09:34 AM	#584
Rayscott Major 378 Rep 1,154 Posts Drives: BMW 228ix Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Lewes DE iTrader: (0)	Speaking of crashes. I crashed yesterday in a group ride. My fault, I was reaching down for my water bottle, dropped it and boom I went down hard and hit my head and rest of my body on the road. I was knocked unconscious and a passing EMT called for an ambulance. I came to in the hospital. Lots of road rash and sore ribs. Cat Scan and MRI showed no damage to brain or ribs. I was very lucky. The ER Doc said the helmet saved my life. I also had a Road ID bracelet on and the ambulance driver pulled up all my vital stats and emergency contact information from it. I have a Giro helmet with the MIPS cage inside. I would highly recommend it as well as the Road ID bracelet especially if you crash while riding alone.
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07-09-2017, 09:45 AM	#585
trj3 Private First Class 48 Rep 112 Posts Drives: BMW M2 Join Date: May 2017 Location: va iTrader: (0)	Specialized Tarmac. Love it. Been riding 30 yrs.... Watching the tour right now!!! __________________ 2017 BMW M2 PE MT 2006 Z06 2004 Miata
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07-10-2017, 05:18 PM	#592
M_Six Free Thinker 19211 Rep 7,544 Posts Drives: 2016 MB GLC300 4matic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Foothills of Mt Level iTrader: (0)	Ouch. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5ec27aaacfcc __________________ Mark markj.pics "Life is uncertain, eat bacon now." -UncleWede
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