Cool Pic Thread - Vehicles

[floridaorange]

[Llarry]

The ultimate collectible Ferrari is the 250GTO, of which 39 were built in 1962-64. The GTO had a 295 hp version of the 3.0 V-12. The price continues to go up and up, but my best estimate of the current market is 45 to 70 million USD for a 250GTO.

[3798j]

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[///MPhatic]

Never been a fan of this body style Chevelle, but these guys nailed it with the wheel/tire/stance.

[///MPhatic]

A quick snap after the drive.

Red Bud. by Andrew Thompson, on Flickr

[Llarry]

There actually were even earlier Ferrari 250s.

The 250 Europa was the first non-competition 3-liter Ferrari. 20 were built in 1953-54.

The 250GT Europa is generally regarded as the first production Ferrari, although it was not a production auto in the usual sense; the chassis was all Ferrari but the body was provided by another company, such as Pinin Farina or Vignale. And even then there were detail differences between cars that were ostensibly the same. The Europa debuted in late 1954 and was built until 1955. The total produced was 34.

The 250GT Europa was replaced as Ferrari's touring car by the 250GT Boano and Ellena, of which 68 were built in 1956-58. The late-production Ellenas had a slightly higher roofline for more headroom.

[Llarry]

That old ad that @3798j posted of a 250GTO for sale for 14K reminds me that I didn't put prices in. I don't have detailed pricing info for classic Ferraris but I do have some. I will edit the posts with prices where available.

And just to maintain the cool pic theme, the interiors of Ferraris were often pretty special, too -- here are interior shots of a 250GT SWB California spider and a similar-vintage 250GT SWB Berlinetta coupe. Of course, those used for competition could be much more spartan.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Llarry

There actually were even earlier Ferrari 250s.

The 250 Europa was the first non-competition 3-liter Ferrari. 20 were built in 1953-54.

The 250GT Europa is generally regarded as the first production Ferrari, although it was not a production auto in the usual sense; the chassis was all Ferrari but the body was provided by another company, such as Pinin Farina or Vignale. And even then there were detail differences between cars that were ostensibly the same. The Europa debuted in late 1954 and was built until 1955. The total produced was 34.

The 250GT Europa was replaced as Ferrari's touring car by the 250GT Boano and Ellena, of which 68 were built in 1956-58. The late-production Ellenas had a slightly higher roofline for more headroom.

I think the 250GT looks as good today as it did the day it was first presented. It defines classic.

[Llarry]

At the same time that Ferrari made expensive, high-performance cars for wealthy buyers in the 1950s and 1960s, they also made even more expensive cars for ultra-wealthy buyers.

The first of these was the 410SA (SA = Super America) with a 5.0 liter big-block V-12 engine producing 340 or 400 hp. The 410SA was made from 1956 to 1959 and a total of 32 were produced. I don't believe any two cars were identical; even more so than with the 250GTs, the customer could specify details here and there to personalize their cars.

The next model was the 400SA, powered by a 4-liter V-12 of 340 hp. This model was actually built on a modified 250GTE chassis but was strictly a two-seater. 36 were built and that total included two cabriolets. The price of a coupe in the USA was about $17,800.

The next special Ferrari was the 500 Superfast, with 37 examples built from 1964 to 1966. Like the 400SA, it was built on a modified chassis of the 2+2 -- in this case the 330GT 2+2 that succeeded the 250GTE. The V-12 went back to 5 liters and Ferrari claimed 400 hp. The price went way up -- early examples sold for $24,400 and late production cars fetched $29,300.

The final ultra-luxury Ferrari was the 365 California, a cabriolet successor to the 500SF. The California was built in 1966-67 and just 14 were produced; about half were sold in the USA. The engine was a 4.4 liter V-12 of 320 hp. Wonder of wonders, power steering was standard.

A quick note: I am not an expert Ferrarista, but am a long-time admirer of these beautiful cars. My sources are sixty years of Road & Track magazine back issues and a modest library of several dozen books on Ferrari.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

In 1959 Ferrari released a 2+2 model, the 250GTE. Sales were (relatively) good and before production ceased in 1963, 955 had been produced. The car was still elegantly styled by Pinin Farnia. The price new was about $12,600 in the U.S.

The last 50 models of the 250GTE were fitted with a new 4.0 liter V-12 and were known as the 330 America; all were produced in 1963. In place of the 240 hp of the 3-liter, this new 4-liter produced 300 hp. The cars were otherwise identical, with the exception of an 'America' badge on the rear of some. (Not pictured)

This short run of 4-liter 2+2s was a prequel to the new 330GT 2+2, using the same 4-liter V-12 but on a larger body. The new 2+2, like the 250GTE before it, was a best-seller for Ferrari, with 1,088 built from 1964 to 1968. The 330GT 2+2 was introduced with the same 4-speed manual as its predecessor, but during the production run was upgraded to a 5-speed. Power steering became an option during the run as well. The 330 was introduced with quad headlights, which proved to be unpopular with some customers; in 1965 single headlights were introduced for the remainder of the production run. The U.S. list price of the 330GT 2+2 was $14,200. In 2023 they go for $300,000 or more -- a relative bargain in the crazy world of Ferrari pricing.

At about the same time the new 2+2 was introduced, Ferrari started selling a new 3.3 liter V-12-powered car in both coupe and convertible form: the 275GTB berlinetta and the 275GTS spider. These were two-seaters and listed in the U.S. at $12,950 and $14,500 respectively. The styling was not the same for the two body styles, though both are widely admired today. The coupe was rated at 280 hp and the convertible at 260 hp. These were sold from 1964 to 1966; 454 coupes and 200 spiders were produced.

In 1966, Ferrari introduced a DOHC variant of the 3.3 liter V-12 for the berlinetta and designated it as the 275GTB4. The output increased to 300 HP for the four-cam engine. The styling was similar to the two-cam cars. The American importer Luigi Chinetti, who had a special relationship with the factory, convinced Ferrari to build a small series of four-cam spiders; these are known as 275GTS4 NART spiders and are among the most collectible Ferraris of all. By 1967, the list price of a 275GTB4 coupe in the U.S. was $14,680. 380 275GTB4 coupes were built and only 10 spiders were produced. A 275GTB4 coupe went for $3 million or so two years ago -- it'll be considerably more now.

Ferrari also introduced a new line of more luxurious and slightly less sporting cars in 1966: the 330GTC and 330GTS using the same 4-liter engine as the 2+2. I will cover those next.

[Llarry]

This will be my final post in the survey of Ferrari road cars of the 1950s to 1960s.

In addition to the sporting 275GTB4 model, Ferrari introduced a new, more luxury-oriented model in 1966. In this case, the coupe and spider shared similar bodies. The 330GTC and 330GTS used the same mechanicals as the larger 330GT 2+2; notably the same 4-liter V-12 of 300 hp. The 330GTC listed for $14,200 in the U.S.

The 330s stayed in production for two years -- 598 coupes and 100 convertibles were built. They were succeeded by very similar 365GTC and 365GTS cars with 4.4 liter V-12s of 320 hp. The new 365s were only built in 1968-69; 168 coupes and just 20 spiders were built.

In 1967-68, Ferrari announced new models to replace the 330GT 2+2 and the 275GTB4. While I won't cover these in any detail, I will say that the new 365GT 2+2 was much larger and more luxurious than anything Ferrari had previously sold; it was so much larger that it is now nicknamed the "Queen Mother." To replace the 275GTB4, Ferrari went big with a 4.4 quad-cam engine of 352 hp and presented a radically-restyled car to the world that became known as the 365GTB4 Daytona. After a couple of years, the Daytona got an open version known as the 365GTS4 Daytona spider. The Daytona, like the 275GTB4 before it, remains an icon of the Ferrari brand.

[Murf the Surf]

I'm a big fan of the vintage Ferrari's, the styling is stunning. I am convinced I was taken home from the hospital by the wrong family, I'm sure I was born into wealth as I should be living in the South of France and have a stable of vintage cars.

Thanks for the posts and pics. Just beautiful.

[///MPhatic]

The old Ferrari's, like all of the older cars I regularly shoot, do little for me with regards to driving. The sounds are there, but they are too far on the old-car spectrum for me to really enjoy driving them. I'm an 80's kid, we had ergonomics. We had cars that started. We had cars that would go 100 mph and feel like 100, not 1000. I love shooting the old cars, but you couldn't give me one, it'd be sold the next day. Million dollar Shelby Mustang or '89 Conquest TSi? Conquest all day long.

I think that makes me truly old, ie stuck in my era.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

The old Ferrari's, like all of the older cars I regularly shoot, do little for me with regards to driving. The sounds are there, but they are too far on the old-car spectrum for me to really enjoy driving them. I'm an 80's kid, we had ergonomics. We had cars that started. We had cars that would go 100 mph and feel like 100, not 1000. I love shooting the old cars, but you couldn't give me one, it'd be sold the next day. Million dollar Shelby Mustang or '89 Conquest TSi? Conquest all day long.

I think that makes me truly old, ie stuck in my era.

You can't get into a 60's sports/muscle care and expect it to have the same driving dynamics of modern cars. You need to embrace the experience, the look, the sound, the smell and the quirks. I've driven plenty of very fast modern cars, but I enjoy getting into an older car and taking a spin, rowing the gears and enjoying the twisties and I don't feel the need to drive it to the limit. I am old BTW.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

You can't get into a 60's sports/muscle care and expect it to have the same driving dynamics of modern cars. You need to embrace the experience, the look, the sound, the smell and the quirks. I've driven plenty of very fast modern cars, but I enjoy getting into an older car and taking a spin, rowing the gears and enjoying the twisties and I don't feel the need to drive it to the limit. I am old BTW.

Oh I don't expect the same dynamics from them, but I have a bare minimum. It's the same reason I prefer driving my Lotus to my M2. The feel of the car, the smell, the movement, the vantage point, they all work in concert to give a much more visceral experience. But that only goes so far for me. I can't go back to 1965 with bias ply tires, springs in the seats, thin-rimmed steering wheels, 14" wheels with balloon tires, and zero suspension dynamics, it's just too far. I'm 52 and firmly stuck in the 80's (graduated in 1988) lol.

[Llarry]

I agree and that's why I think of these classic Ferraris as cars to be placed in the living room and admired as works of art, not as cars to be driven. Heavy steering, dodgy brakes (at least in the drum-braked cars), notchy shifters, etc. I've never driven a Ferrari and would prefer not to -- I just admire the design and the engines, but keep in mind that they are antiques.

[Llarry]

And, given the positive reaction to my posts on old Ferraris, I will do a couple of more covering the earliest cars and perhaps a few years into the 1970s.

But first let me tell you a cool story about an irresistible force versus an immovable object...

Enzo Ferrari was not a man to be trifled with and could be very picky about his customers; many came to him hat in hand wanting to buy a car and were turned away as unworthy (one such was named Lamborghini and we know how that turned out.) In 1952 a very wealthy woman, Willie Day of Los Angeles decided to buy a Ferrari. But not just any Ferrari -- her Ferrari had to be just so. In early 1953 she went to Italy to discuss the order. Ferrari suggested a nice 212 berlinetta or cabriolet would be ideal for a woman. Willie had other ideas: she wanted a 375 Mille Miglia spider, a fire-breathing competition model. Enzo was aghast, but Willie insisted and, after all, Ferrari, who was always scrambling to finance his true love, racing, finally succumbed.

Another important condition of the sale was the color; all of Mrs. Day's cars were painted the same shade of blue and she came with color samples to ensure that the car would be just perfect.

Finally the day arrived when the car was ready and Willie traveled to Modena to meet Enzo and collect her new Ferrari. The car was covered and when the cover was lifted she gasped when she saw that the car was bright yellow! Through the translator she complained that the car was not how she had ordered it.

Ferrari explained that the had himself decided on yellow paint with green leather upholstery as more befitting a lady.

The car is still owned by the Day family to this day.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Llarry

I agree and that's why I think of these classic Ferraris as cars to be placed in the living room and admired as works of art, not as cars to be driven. Heavy steering, dodgy brakes (at least in the drum-braked cars), notchy shifters, etc. I've never driven a Ferrari and would prefer not to -- I just admire the design and the engines, but keep in mind that they are antiques.

I think they are great to be driven, in private driveways, if they are maintained like they should be. On public roads? Hell no.

Do you remember the show Victory by Design with Alain De Cadenet? It was my favorite, and showed exactly how those old cars should be experienced!!!

Sorry about the resolution, I can't find them in any better!

[Llarry]

I've already introduced the 4.4 V-12s in the form of the lux-oriented 365GTC and GTS, but in 1968 Ferrari got serious with the four-cam 365GTB4 Daytona berlinetta replacing the earlier 275GTB4. The Daytona was a sensation: powerful (352 hp) and with attention-grabbing style. In 1968, it sold in the USA for $20,500. It was available for an unusually long run: 1968 to 1974.

A couple of years after introduction, an open version was made available for $25,810. Only 122 were built, as opposed to 1,284 of the coupe. There are far more spiders available today that were built; a number of coupes have been converted to spiders -- widely considered sacrilege by the purists.

Actually, that brings to mind a phenomenon in the Ferrari market: The conversion of less valuable cars into replicas of more valuable models. The poster child for this is the 250GT California Spider -- only about a hundred were built (both LWB and SWB) -- and a relatively cheap 250GT Pinin Farina Coupe or even a 250GTE can be cut up and converted to a fake California spider.

To move on, in 1968 Ferrari also introduced a new 2+2 model with the 4.4 liter engine, this time with SOHC. It listed for $18,900 in the U.S. and 800 were built. This is the model known today as the "Queen Mother." It had independent rear suspension, a first for a 2+2 and the emphasis was on luxury with power steering and air conditioning standard. This model was available until 1971.

By 1970, the 365GTC was no longer available and Ferrari had a hole to fill in the lineup. The 365GTC4 filled that hole; it had tiny rear "seats" but was not called a 2+2. It also had a four-cam engine, but with 320 hp rather than the Daytona's 352. 500 were sold in 1970-72. Inflation was taking its toll and the price in the USA was $27,500.

Finally, the big 365GT 2+2 needed replacement and in 1972, Ferrari introduced a new 2+2. The 365GT4 2+2 had a further lengthened wheelbase and a DOHC 4.4 V-12 of 320hp. By now emission controls were severely impacting Ferrari sales in the USA. 521 were built during 1972-76. Of note, the replacement for this car used essentially the same chassis and body: The 400GT and 400A (A for automatic transmission by GM!) and then the 412i stayed in production until 1990 with minimal changes to the body style. These cars were not sold in the USA.

This then was the end of the road for front-engined Ferrari V-12s of the classic period. The Daytona was replaced by a mid-engine 4.4 liter car, the 365GT4 Berlinetta Boxer using a flat-12. I'll leave the story of the Ferrari mid-engine boxers to someone else.

[Llarry]

I will still do a post on the earliest Ferraris but I can now ask the question: If I won the lottery twice and could have any single one of the classic Ferraris I've covered, which would it be?

Realistically (are you kidding me?) the 275GTS4 NART is probably out of the running; only ten were made and they don't get advertised on eBay, you know? I think my choice would be the 275GTB coupe -- two-cam or four-cam, whatever. The most classic of classic Ferraris in my opinion. Maybe a 6-carb setup just because 6 carbs on a Ferrari V-12 is pure sex.

Truth be known, though, even the humblest of the cars I've posted on would be terrific. Probably the least expensive to buy would be one of the 2+2s: a 250GTE or 330GT 2+2 (two headlamp version, please.)

Do you have to buy a ticket to win lotto?

EDIT: Stop the presses! If I can fantasize about winning the lotto twice, surely I can fantasize about finding a 275GTS/4 NART Spider, so my new number one choice is that open version of the 275GTB4.

[Llarry]

I have failed to explain the Ferrari numbering system, so before I discuss the 1947-53 cars, let me digress a bit.

The Ferrari numbers for the cars we've been discussing is simple: the piston displacement for a single piston of the engine. Multiply by 12 to find the total engine displacement. So a Ferrari 250 is a 3-liter car. Here are some others:
125: 1.5 liter V-12
159: 1.9 liter V-12
166: 2.0 liter V-12
195: 2.3 liter V-12
212: 2.5 liter V-12
225: 2.7 liter V-12

That out of the way, the very first Ferraris were three 125s produced in 1947 with 118 hp V-12s. Shortly after completion, two of them were bored out to 1.9 liters and subsequently to 2 liters. Apparently in Italy there is no substitute for cubic inches either.

The total number of 166s built from 1948 to 1950 was 40. In non-competition form, these were 90-110 hp engines with single carbs; those intended for racing would typically have triple carbs.

The 166 was succeeded by the Ferrari 195, with 26 built in 1950-51. With its 2.3 liter engine, power was up to 130 hp.

At about the same time, the 212 was introduced with a 2.5 liter V-12 and more power. 81 212s were produced from 1950-53.

In 1952, Ferrari debuted the 225S, which had a 210 hp 2.7 V-12 and was really destined for racing only. 21 were built.

In 1953, the first 3-liter Ferrari V-12s were run, which takes us up to the early stages of the 250s.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by GarySL

Speaking of bugs...

Hazaaaaah