F1 2024: US GP - Austin (Oct 20)

[minn19]

Originally Posted by G30M

Max has been doing it since 2021 and it's become a rule now. whoever is ahead at the apex gets the corner. it doesn't care how you get to the apex. i'm not sure that he can't make the corner. he sure can if he wanted to. but he refused to turn so that he is ahead at the apex, and Lando goes off track and then it becomes illegal to pass.

as I said, the only way to pass Max is on the inside, and then you still have to do the refusing to turn business.

I don’t know how you prove or disprove he could’ve made the corner. I suspect that’s why Lando didn’t move that far left or think Max or anyone was going to do that. The angle and speed he came in there doesn’t look good for making the corner within track limits. I really don’t think he wanted to go that far off track as he knew the Ferraris were ready to pounce as LEC did.

FWIW, I do agree Lando should’ve given the spot back right away and tried to pass him again. Lando is not an idiot though and he knows at this stage Max is willing to take a DNF if he takes Lando with him so he tried to outrun the 5 second penalty that everyone knew was coming.

If you can truly dive bomb like that in the first corner with no repercussions as long as you get to the apex first……….they are going to get a lot more interesting.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

If you can truly dive bomb like that in the first corner with no repercussions as long as you get to the apex first……….they are going to get a lot more interesting.

if you dive bomb into the corner you are supposed to make the turn within track limits. if you succeed, you're a hero. if you have track limit violation after dive bomb move, stewards will look at it and decide.

the problem is getting on the inside of the guy ahead. they are always going to want to cover the inside.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don’t know how you prove or disprove he could’ve made the corner.

by watching a lot of racing.

watch something with lots of overtaking and you'll see how overtakes are made, how to prevent an overtake, etc.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by G30M

by watching a lot of racing.

watch something with lots of overtaking and you'll see how overtakes are made, how to prevent an overtake, etc.

Been watching “a lot of racing” since the mid 80s. Also not the biggest track rat in the world, but have a hundreds of my own laps in various cars/motorcycles etc. Obviously nowhere near a pro level. But I definitely understand corner entrance/exit etc.

Kind of an odd response, you could’ve just said you don’t really know either. That corner is obviously a very hard angle to the left. His line to the apex at that speed was definitely going to put him off the racing line. Not sure if he had enough brakes/traction to stay on track. I feel like if could’ve he would’ve. He already had Lando off and apparently couldn't legally pass. So why not try and protect from LEC and almost SAI overtakes?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by G30M

if you dive bomb into the corner you are supposed to make the turn within track limits. if you succeed, you're a hero. if you have track limit violation after dive bomb move, stewards will look at it and decide.

the problem is getting on the inside of the guy ahead. they are always going to want to cover the inside.

So you do think the steward’s should’ve looked at it?

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

Been watching “a lot of racing” since the mid 80s.... He already had Lando off and apparently couldn't legally pass. So why not try and protect from LEC and almost SAI overtakes?

Did you watch Brazil 2021? Max did the same thing.

Re why not do that to the Ferraris, I'm guessing he was not racing Ferrari. He was racing Lando for the WDC. Doing this comes with risk of crashing if the outside car decides to turn in. If he blocks someone who is not Lando and crashes then it's free points for Lando.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

So you do think the steward’s should’ve looked at it?

Looked at max vs lando? I thought they did and gave Lando a 5s penalty?

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don’t know how you prove or disprove he could’ve made the corner.

The stewards can see all the data, speed, where you hit the brakes, how hard you hit the brakes, at what angle you turn in, the moment you turn in and so on. They can compare all that with previous laps and make a well reasoned decision.

But ultimately it's really simple, the rule states when you're ahead at the apex, the corner is yours. It's the same for every driver, can't blame Verstappen to be the one taking advantage of that.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by G30M

Looked at max vs lando? I thought they did and gave Lando a 5s penalty?

Not that one, the first corner at the start of the race. That’s what I’ve been talking about anyway.

Originally Posted by fs1977

The stewards can see all the data, speed, where you hit the brakes, how hard you hit the brakes, at what angle you turn in, the moment you turn in and so on. They can compare all that with previous laps and make a well reasoned decision.

But ultimately it's really simple, the rule states when you're ahead at the apex, the corner is yours. It's the same for every driver, can't blame Verstappen to be the one taking advantage of that.

I’ll have to look it up, but I believe it says something about being in control of your car and having to keep it on track. I’m sure it’s a lot more wordy/technical than that.

I know they can see all that, I think they let it go because first corner/first lap BS.

[3798j]

Think it's shots like this one that shows Max has no intention of making the turn...he has two approaches..."I pass or we crash" or "Attempt to pass and I'll put you in the grass". New fans think it's great racing.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by fs1977

But ultimately it's really simple, the rule states when you're ahead at the apex, the corner is yours. It's the same for every driver, can't blame Verstappen to be the one taking advantage of that.

My beef isn't with Max exploiting the rules, although it does make him look like a novice when he can't pass without going off track, it's with poorly written rules that reinforce this type of sloppy driving.

[MontyB1]

Which driver in the image do we think got punished. A or B

A- The one that hit the apex when they passed someone and stayed on track
B- The driver that missed the Apex to drive another driver off the track and went off the track themselves

I think it's now known as the - Dictionary - Interlagos defense. Aim to take the car on the outside of you off the track with you with no attempt to stay on the circuit to defend against overtaking to get no punishment. Note must be in a Red Bull....

[NYG]

This race is why Lando and his supporting engineers aren't ready to win a driver's championship.

I wouldn't be surprised if Leclerc finishes P2 in WDC.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

Not that one, the first corner at the start of the race. That’s what I’ve been talking about anyway.

I’ll have to look it up, but I believe it says something about being in control of your car and having to keep it on track. I’m sure it’s a lot more wordy/technical than that.

I know they can see all that, I think they let it go because first corner/first lap BS.

ah i see. my bad.

i didn't see anything wrong with turn 1.

they are racing, not driving in a 2 lane road to the shops.

when you are racing you don't wave people by, otherwise it won't be called racing. on the other hand, you are supposed to give one car's width at the turn IF the car is alongside (ie if you are not ahead at the apex). i'll look at turn one later and see if there's anything wrong, but i didn't see anything wrong when i first watched it.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

Not that one, the first corner at the start of the race. That’s what I’ve been talking about anyway.
.

i watched it again, you're right, it looks like they were alongside so Max according to the rules should give Lando a car's width, instead of pushing him off the track.

however i've seen in many races in lap one the rule book doesn't apply, so maybe Max exploited that. also nobody (McLaren) protested so again, not noted or looked at.

Would max be able to turn, of course he can. He's the best driver in the world.

but the main issue it, Lando didn't cover the inside. he let Max in. i think he was busy covering the Ferraris on the outside.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Which driver in the image do we think got punished. A or B

A- The one that hit the apex when they passed someone and stayed on track
B- The driver that missed the Apex to drive another driver off the track and went off the track themselves

I think it's now known as the - Dictionary - Interlagos defense. Aim to take the car on the outside of you off the track with you with no attempt to stay on the circuit to defend against overtaking to get no punishment. Note must be in a Red Bull....

Russel was overtaking inside and got a penalty for forcing Bottas (lead) off track. Lando was attempting to overtake outside on Max, who was ahead at the apex - Lando got a penalty for gaining advantage (carrying more speed through a wider radius off the track).

It's pretty straight forward and what all the greatest drivers of all time do. They'll push the limits of everything.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by G30M

i watched it again, you're right, it looks like they were alongside so Max according to the rules should give Lando a car's width, instead of pushing him off the track.

however i've seen in many races in lap one the rule book doesn't apply, so maybe Max exploited that. also nobody (McLaren) protested so again, not noted or looked at.

Would max be able to turn, of course he can. He's the best driver in the world.

but the main issue it, Lando didn't cover the inside. he let Max in. i think he was busy covering the Ferraris on the outside.

He is currently, he wasn’t making that corner with that line, even he can’t fight physics.

I do give him props, he knows how to exploit the regulations, that’s for sure.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by NYG

. Lando was attempting to overtake outside on Max, who was ahead at the apex - Lando got a penalty for gaining advantage (carrying more speed through a wider radius off the track).

If a driver has to roll out of the brakes to be ahead at the apex and then off the circuit to defend that is not legal racing. Overtaking off the circuit or defending off it is wrong plain and simple. Max did it twice and didn’t get a penalty once, that is just poor stewarding.

Or punish them both and net off the impact or leave them to race if that is what they are doing.

[MontyB1]

Here is another view I’ve just read. Brundle is normally fairly even handed as a racer and his view is pretty clear let them race or change the rules. If there was a wall on the outside or a gravel trap would Max have done the same, does he have to leave room…. Answers on a postcard.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...nalty-analysed

[minn19]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Here is another view I’ve just read. Brundle is normally fairly even handed as a racer and his view is pretty clear let them race or change the rules. If there was a wall on the outside or a gravel trap would Max have done the same, does he have to leave room…. Answers on a postcard.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...nalty-analysed

That was an excellent read, messy to say the least. Thanks for the link.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Here is another view I’ve just read. Brundle is normally fairly even handed as a racer and his view is pretty clear let them race or change the rules. If there was a wall on the outside or a gravel trap would Max have done the same, does he have to leave room…. Answers on a postcard.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...nalty-analysed

Well put. Also did he say they treat Max and others differently.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

On conclusion we can see Lando is trying more things after losing out on the hairpin at the start, we saw Charlie wanting to make the same manoeuvre as MAX at the exact same time then quickly placing himself back to power out of the bend better in the middle as MAX and LAN drifted outside in their acute angle trajectory.