F1 2024: Dutch GP - Zandvoort (Aug 25)

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

You literally just described Ham's career of very little results unless his car had a material advantage. His MB for 8 years was equivalent to one driver having a GT3 cup car vs another driven in a base 911 - you could be a total clown with no talent and win - and the results showed just that. Max won more in a lesser car before 2021, then in 2021 won in a slower car, in 2022 had a slower car for most of the year and won, 2023 his skills took a car that barely managed any podiums with the other car and put up the absolute best season we will ever see in F1 (I think he set 19 records that year which most will never be even approached) - one no MB driver from 2014-2021 could ever dream of since none had the talent to do it - and in 2024 with the 2nd-4th fastest car for most of the season still has nearly 4 times more wins than anyone else. No one of the grid would have won more than 1 or 2 races in Max's RBR, let alone 7.

Ham was not able to overcome a WDC in his rookie season. Your attempts to twist facts can be seen through as clear as glass. Plus Ham got favored on upgrades over Alo and STILL COULD NOT BEAT HIM since Alo won more races. They both still got owned by Kimi in a slower car. What happened to Ham after crashgate when he still had the best car? He was a complete nobody who couldnt win until that 80-100 hp advantage came into play. Then when that advantage went away, for 3 years he did nothing.

I'm not going to read this.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I'm not going to read Heel Toe's post because there isn't anything that he can say that will matter.

Max has had the fastest car, and he's still losing. He could NEVER accomplish this in his rookie season because he never was and never will be the driver Lewis is. He lost to Daniel who while good, clearly isn't Lewis level.

His fans are in denial - I like Max as driver, I think he's very good. But Hamilton is clearly a tier above him and everyone else on the grid.

Ham got the best car F1 had at the time and unfair advantage of upgrades and preferential treatment over Alo and STILL COULD NOT WIN. Max in the same car would have won the WDC since he has the skills and talent do.

Max >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ham ever will be since he can win in a car when it doesnt have 80-100 more hp than everyone else. Ham literally is anonymous in every other race in his career without that and the secret tire tests. Ham is ALL CAR 100% of the time and cannot make anything up with his driving like Max can.

Again, through 200 races, Max has only had a good car for about 65 of them whereas Ham had a great (and unbeatable for a majority of them) car for all 200, yet Max won more races in those 200 GPs. Why?

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Ham was not able to overcome a WDC in his rookie season. Your attempts to twist facts can be seen through as clear as glass. Plus Ham got favored on upgrades over Alo and STILL COULD NOT BEAT HIM since Alo won more races. They both still got owned by Kimi in a slower car. What happened to Ham after crashgate when he still had the best car? He was a complete nobody who couldnt win until that 80-100 hp advantage came into play. Then when that advantage went away, for 3 years he did nothing.

Max has beaten Ham, Kimi, Alo, and Vet - all multi WDC winners sans Kimi and has raced against the most competitive F1 grid since Sch raced in the 90's.

I'm down with any post that brings back Kimi the "Peoples Champion"

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I'm down with any post that brings back Kimi the "Peoples Champion"

I did not care for Kimi at all. Overrated.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I did not care for Kimi at all. Overrated.

That's OK,,,Not overrated...Drunk and under-motivated...Still dah Man

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

That's OK,,,Not overrated...Drunk and under-motivated...Still dah Man

I misspoke. He was fun at times, and he was talented.
He was just a jerk most of the time. I used to think he was funny but then his dryness and attitude kinda wore on me. I like Bottas personality more.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I misspoke. He was fun at times, and he was talented.
He was just a jerk most of the time. I used to think he was funny but then his dryness and attitude kinda wore on me. I like Bottas personality more.

Most people say that about me

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Most people say that about me

Naaahhhh

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Hamilton was a WDC runner up in his rookie season and won it in his second season. He has the undisputed best rookie season ever. There is literally nothing more to say on his skill - he set the bar. LOL on beating Ham in a slower car and he can't even mount a challenge to Lando - who we can all argree isn't even top 5 talentwise. Max has a rocket in 2021 and legitimate lost on merit. If he didn't then why is AB21 controversial.

Max has had the fastest car and hasn't won in 5 races. I don't know what Max's failures have to do with Hamilton, but here we are. This is pathetic.

Who drove the fastest car in the F1 history ?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Looking at the last 30 years, only once the WDC winner was not a GP winner in the first 5 races. That was 2012 when there were 8 different winners in as many GPs. Vettel won the 4th race, even Maldonado won one, one of the most exciting seasons in decades. This year, Norris’ maiden victory came at the 6th race. (Sainz won the 3rd race, but he’s not a contender.) And no driver has won his maiden victory and the championship in the same year. (Hamilton came close.) From a statistic-ish POV, this year is Verstappen’s. Now, it’s very possible that Norris ends second to Verstappen by fewer than 7 points. And then … how do we say ‘there’ll be hell to pay’ in Hungarian ?

Don't underestimate the dynamics of a race season.

Team McLaren is on a roll and everyone knows it.

Red Bull Racing radio messages get increasingly frantic as the race season moves on: it's all about damage control as McLaren has the upper hand for now.

McLaren has improved its car in a more optimal way than any other F1 team.

[Artemis]

Debating whether Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen is the better driver:

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I did not care for Kimi at all. Overrated.

Scuderia's last world champ, he actually dragged a sleepy Ferrari out of the doldrums with his nagging.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Debating whether Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen is the better driver:

Please! I like Msx and I think he's a very good driver, I just don't believe he's better than Lewis.

Still.one of the best on the grid though - unlike Lando. Q

[AmuroRay]

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Please! I like Msx and I think he's a very good driver, I just don't believe he's better than Lewis.

Still.one of the best on the grid though - unlike Lando. Q

AmuroRay, many parameters - different strokes for different folks. It remains very subjective to compare the excellence of drivers. Also different times, different standards, different cars, etc. But we can all agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen are part of the F1 pantheon of the all-time greats.

Compare for example with the formidable Scottish driver Jim Clark (WDC 1963 and 1965). A life and race career cut short in a fatal F2 crash in 1968, aged 32. During the Spa 1963 race (ending in torrential rain) he finished 8 miles and almost 5 minutes clear of P2 (Bruce McLaren) (see for example here (results) and here (video - no sound)).

To get you a fascinating glimpse of a 'day at the races' in the early 60s featuring its rawness and perilously low safety standards for drivers, camera-men and public: 10-minute highlights - in color! - of the Spa-Francorchamps 1961 F1 race (race results here):

Senna - Fangio - Stewart:


Chapman:


Some drivers preferred wearing a polo shirt (average lap time: over 130mph).

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Artemis

AmuroRay, many parameters - different strokes for different folks. It remains very subjective to compare the excellence of drivers. Also different times, different standards, different cars, etc. But we can all agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen are part of the F1 pantheon of the all-time greats.

Compare for example with the formidable Scottish driver Jim Clark (WDC 1963 and 1965). A life and race career cut short in a fatal F2 crash in 1968, aged 32. During the Spa 1963 race (ending in torrential rain) he finished 8 miles and almost 5 minutes clear of P2 (Bruce McLaren) (see for example here (results) and here (video - no sound)).

To get you a fascinating glimpse of a 'day at the races' in the early 60s featuring its rawness and perilously low safety standards for drivers, camera-men and public: 10-minute highlights - in color! - of the Spa-Francorchamps 1961 F1 race (race results here):

I think more than the other side, I have been fair to Max. If Lewis was terrible as they say, Max has never beaten any one of any significance.

Currently he's struggling to just podium much less win with the 2nd fastest car on the grid. There is a lot of subjectivity on this. But there are also objective measures as well.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Debating whether Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen is the better driver:

Great GIF . But it should have been 2 fighting dogs ...

[dfox]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I think more than the other side, I have been fair to Max. If Lewis was terrible as they say, Max has never beaten any one of any significance.

Currently he's struggling to just podium much less win with the 2nd fastest car on the grid. There is a lot of subjectivity on this. But there are also objective measures as well.

Since we're talking about how much Max is "struggling"... let's put it in perspective.

2008, Lewis won the WDC by 1 point. He only won 5 of the races. He finished on the podium in 10 of the races.

So far, Max has won 10 races and podiumed on 13 races (including sprints). So, you want to disparage Max for his performance this year, yet your beloved Hamilton has performed much worse in previous seasons... Does that mean Hamilton sucked? No, it means the competition was closer than ever, which is exactly what it means right now...

good god. the lack of perspective is staggering. If this isn't a troll account, I'm baffled.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

If Lewis was terrible as they say, Max has never beaten any one of any significance.

About (in)significance: triple WDC title implies to have beaten the rest of the field several times, including several competing WDC title winners.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Artemis

About (in)significance: triple WDC title implies to have beaten the rest of the field several times, including several competing WDC title winners.

Who? Lewis and Alonso? Again, no one of significance. Alonso hasn't won a WDC in 2006.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Who? Lewis and Alonso? Again, no one of significance. Alonso hasn't won a WDC in 2006.

FIA awarded 17 WDC titles, including 3 to Verstappen, to drivers competing in seasons 2021, 2022 and/or 2023:

• Räikkönen (2007);
• Alonso (2005 and 2006);
• Verstappen (2021, 2022 and 2023);
• Vettel (2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013);
• Hamilton (2008, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020).

Are you questioning the F1 race legacies of Räikkönen, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton ?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Artemis

FIA awarded 17 WDC titles, including 3 to Verstappen, to drivers competing in seasons 2021, 2022 and/or 2023:

• Räikkönen (2007);
• Alonso (2005 and 2006);
• Verstappen (2021, 2022 and 2023);
• Vettel (2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013);
• Hamilton (2008, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020).

Are you questioning the F1 race legacies of Räikkönen, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton ?

I'm not, but if you think Hamilton is overrated, the only drivers who Verstappen beat are Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen.

The most recent (Vettel) won a WDC more 8 year before Max was wrongfully given his first. His second (legitimate) was 9 years past Vettel's final win - 15 years past Raikkonen, 16 years past Alonso's last win.

Basically old guys. So basically he's just now managed to edge guys out at the end of their carreers.