Would a BMW Supercar Do Well?

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW

You're right my taste is impeccable.

Are you blind or stupid?

The M1, 'nuff said.

You're right. 'nuff said. It's ugly. Enjoy the Jetta.

[DougLikesBMW]

Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude

You're right. 'nuff said. It's ugly. Enjoy the Jetta.

You can't even see beauty when it is blatantly staring back at you on the screen.

What does my Jetta have to do with anything? Oh wait, it doesn't. And I am enjoying it, thank you very much.

Looking forward to your next worthless post.

[hanmaas]

Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude

You're right. 'nuff said. It's ugly.

[Year's_End]

the m1 is hot. just looks awkward from certain angles. they need to find a way to clean the front corners.

[darkcloud]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

the m1 is hot. just looks awkward from certain angles. they need to find a way to clean the front corners.

+1. And get some proper rims. What they have on there now look like glorified hub caps, and in chrome, BMW should not do chrome rims. Leave that to Ford, GM, and Dodge.

Oh and a sweet supercar/high performance car somewhere in the $100-200k range would be nice. If they could slide it in the low $100k range optioned out with the ability to rape cars 2-3 times it's price. Something like that would be hard not to sell. As said before it would be a great opportunity to add in the F1 heritage and components to then filter them to future production cars.

I also don't think BMW needs a supercar to enhance their image. Their image is already fairly high and they have also never strived to be a contender to Ferrari, Lambo etc, so why start now?

[darkcloud]

I'm going to keep going.

What BMW needs to really do is bring their wider product range to all countries. I know it's not so much BMW but the general public (USA) that sees BMW as a higher brand. But they have proven they can fulfill ranges from $18k and beyond. The 318i hatch just wasn't the car to prove that to Americans in the mid to late 90's.

They need to bring their lower 4 banger and diesel engines in the 3er and 1er. If they did this and opened their product line their sales would jump considerably. Think about it, what would you rather have if you could only afford..... a $24k Mazda 3 or 6.... or a $24k nicely equipped 1er or 3er? The current 1er starting at $29k just $5k shy of the 3er is way to close in price and hopefully doesn't hurt either car. BMW has accomplished a wider product range in other countries but seems to scared to hurt their image in the US. Same goes for Benz and Audi, Audi wouldn't particularly want to due to killing or drastically having to change VW.

BMW and Benz are prime to do this. Who ever takes the steps first will force all of the auto industry to change. If there are more cars that people trust, want, love that are affordable while still having BMW or Benz safety, engineering, performance and characteristics all other brands will be forced to raise their standards.

BMW or Benz would then have enough money to R&D every stupid idea that gets drawn on a cocktail napkin.

[Year's_End]

audi already gives us their turbo inline 4's^

[G5Ti]

It would be neat, but not likely to elevate brand image.

Plus, you really have to think about which brand image BMW wants to continue with in the future.

On the one hand, you have the purists -- those who long for the days when BMW built light, easily maintained sporting cars for reasonable amounts of money. On the other, you have the majority of the modern fleet: heavy, feature-laden cars with monster motors to keep the performance high.

They both have their place, but it seems the market won't allow you to cater to both groups. BMW has shown an interest in going for the "prestige" brand rather than the "performance" brand. An ultra-high-dollar supercar is unlikely to please either group, and Ferrari/Lamborghini enthusiasts will just balk and laugh and then not drive their cars more than 10 miles a year, hoping to keep the resale value stupidly high.

What I would love to see BMW try is something like this:

Continue with regular BMW models being excellent balances of performance and luxury. M models will continue to "dilute the brand" (so say the purists) and be insanely powerful, over-the-top vehicles with all the bells and whistles. Immense performance for every driver.

Add this mystical tii line to help appease the purists; keep prices in-check, and offer more "stripped" versions of the cars (sadly, still have to meet lame Federal regulations so this will never be perfect). Some smaller motors would be okay, but even a Porsche-style concentration on the I6 motor (both NA and TT) would reduce testing necessities for bringing vehicles to the US market. Lose the sunroofs, the power seats, the gimmicky this and that and just let people build the cars a la carte.

That said, the M1 Homage is über-hot to my eyes. At first, I hated it, then I kept looking at it. It either burned a spot on my cornea and my brain gave up trying to figure it or out, or else I had an ah-ha moment and realized I appreciate its modern reinterpretation of the original masterpiece (which itself is kind of ungainly and awkward until you spot it at various angles).

If introduced at an R8 price-point, an M1 Homage might sell, but probably not enough to make development worthwhile. If the economy improves enough, a Le Mans-derived supercar could be feasible, but unlikely to alter the brand image at-large. It might, however, attract less affluent customers to the tii vehicles and 1- and 3-series models.

Really, it's impossible to say. You can do all the marketing research and focus group stuff you want, but consumers are fickle, crazy nut-jobs. We make BMW's job very, very hard.

[RRGOO7]

No. Selling 28k cars to 200k cars just doesnt make it so "exotic"

[c0nstant]

i vote no. i can see them making a successful grand tourer, though.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Explain.

Are you using old, old history to support any claims that BMW might fail if they made a supercar now? If you're referring to the horrible muck up of a launch that was the M1, there's absolutely no correlation between how that went down and how a possible supercar would end up coming out now. Lamborghini screwed up big time with that project (M1).

I was only using the R8 as an example of a manufacturer better know for producing beautifully built and fast but ultimately boring and safe motorcars in the eyes of the majority. No one would have thought that Audi would succeed where both BMW and Mercedes have failed. I put that down to basically re-badging a Gallardo and put it's technology into and equally beautiful shell, but the re-badge on it's own wouldn't have been enough, Audi had to be seen as the saviour to Lamborghini, to turn that failing company around and make it appear to the rest of the world that Audi's technical know-how was responsible for Lamboghini's success. This alone is the reason in my eyes as to why the R8 has been accepted as an equal to Porsche, Ferrari and even Lamborghini but Audi wisely keep it's pricing modest by supercar standard, after all it is still an Audi.

Audi succeed first time round, with BMW they have already tried with the M1 and sadly that car fell flat of it's face, to revive their supercar program and base it on a car that failed last time round it wrong. BMW have the ability to build an amazing good supercar but is ability enough to win over buyers, that is the only point I was trying to make and not turn it into an Audi vs BMW thing.

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

It's not necessary to buy out a dying supercar brand, nor is it always the best idea. I can't think of any current floundering supercar company that's worth buying out right now, at least for BMW.

Audi were lucky, at that time Lamborghini were in problems and regardless of their failings they were the one true rival to the greatest supercar company of them all (Ferrari). BMW don't have the luxury of a failing supercar brand to buy out, but if they can ride the current economical storm there may well be a few to pick from.

[Sticky]

M1 is not applicable as that was a car built from 1978-1981. Did Audi have any issues in the 80's Footie?

If BMW were to make a new supercar, better believe it would be a whole different level than a parts bin car like the R8 which you can really thank Lambo for, not Audi. I wouldn't say Audi succeeded their first time around. They have yet to build a car of that level on their own instead of using an already established tried and true platform.

To answer the question, BMW does not need to build some ridiculous exotic. BMW could build a mid-engine car for 150k that would be an F430 rival that would make sense. They already have an awesome V10, that could use some more displacement, like around the Carrera GT level. Hell, even a Z8 successor with that type of motor would be great and make sense.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

M1 is not applicable as that was a car built from 1978-1981. Did Audi have any issues in the 80's Footie?.

Did you happen to read the post I write above?????

Originally Posted by Sticky

If BMW were to make a new supercar, better believe it would be a whole different level than a parts bin car like the R8 which you can really thank Lambo for, not Audi. I wouldn't say Audi succeeded their first time around. They have yet to build a car of that level on their own instead of using an already established tried and true platform.

You really have to understand what Audi did to Lamborghini, to come out with a statement that Audi built the R8 because of Lambo's help is so, so far from the truth it shows how biased you really are. The chassis/shell for the Gallardo is built by Audi and shipped to the Lamboghini factory, the Gallardo engine is an Audi design, both current Lambo models were design and developed with Audi's help.

I am not denying that if BMW did decide to follow it through and build a supercar it would be amazing, their M3 has been at the top since it's launch and it even now can compete with the 997s on trackdays. I am only pointing out that the way Audi went about the developing and marketing probably aided their acceptance and success with the R8 into this very competitive market. I just feel that for BMW to try it on their own will be the trickier path to take and might not succeed.

Originally Posted by Sticky

To answer the question, BMW does not need to build some ridiculous exotic. BMW could build a mid-engine car for 150k that would be an F430 rival that would make sense. They already have an awesome V10, that could use some more displacement, like around the Carrera GT level. Hell, even a Z8 successor with that type of motor would be great and make sense.

I don't think BMW need a supercar in the way that Audi did, they are already recognized as an accomplished chassis design on great driver focused cars. Their image is already up there, so it would be foolhardy to waste all that development money in an exercise to boost some executives ego.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Did you happen to read the post I write above?????



You really have to understand what Audi did to Lamborghini, to come out with a statement that Audi built the R8 because of Lambo's help is so, so far from the truth it shows how biased you really are. The chassis/shell for the Gallardo is built by Audi and shipped to the Lamboghini factory, the Gallardo engine is an Audi design, both current Lambo models were design and developed with Audi's help.

I am not denying that if BMW did decide to follow it through and build a supercar it would be amazing, their M3 has been at the top since it's launch and it even now can compete with the 997s on trackdays. I am only pointing out that the way Audi went about the developing and marketing probably aided their acceptance and success with the R8 into this very competitive market. I just feel that for BMW to try it on their own will be the trickier path to take and might not succeed.



I don't think BMW need a supercar in the way that Audi did, they are already recognized as an accomplished chassis design on great driver focused cars. Their image is already up there, so it would be foolhardy to waste all that development money in an exercise to boost some executives ego.

Yes, I read your post again, and you still don't seem to get the M1 is not applicable to what BMW would do with a supercar / mid-engine sports car today. You keep saying they failed already, a matter of perspective, and implying they would fail again in this segment. Audi did not succeed on their first try as you are saying, because they never built their own car.

Buddy, there is no bias the fact is the R8 is based on the Gallardo. That is pretty clear cut, isn't it? The R8 is not some car Audi came up with on their own deriving amazing results. The R8 is a re-skinned Gallardo with a weak motor and embarassing performance for the price, PERIOD. I don't deny Audi helped and supplied parts and so forth, but they had plenty of time to sit and wait and see how the Gallardo did before pushing forward with their version of it. Plus, if the Gallardo failed, Audi could wash their hands of it.

If the R8 came out before the Gallardo, all your talk about Audi succeeding with a supercar (if you want to make that stretch, it isn't one) might have some merit. Don't get me wrong, I love the car, but it is what it is.

I don't think a supercar is necessary for BMW. As I said, something along the lines of a new Z8 would be nice. I would love to move to something more upscale than the M3 but BMW has no better drivers car for me to move to. That would necessitate moving to a different brand unfortunately, so there is a hole in the lineup.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Yes, I read your post again, and you still don't seem to get the M1 is not applicable to what BMW would do with a supercar / mid-engine sports car today. You keep saying they failed already, a matter of perspective, and implying they would fail again in this segment. Audi did not succeed on their first try as you are saying, because they never built their own car.

Buddy, there is no bias the fact is the R8 is based on the Gallardo. That is pretty clear cut, isn't it? The R8 is not some car Audi came up with on their own deriving amazing results. The R8 is a re-skinned Gallardo with a weak motor and embarassing performance for the price, PERIOD.

If the R8 came out before the Gallardo, all your talk about Audi succeeding with a supercar (if you want to make that stretch, it isn't one) might have some merit. Don't get me wrong, I love the car, but it is what it is.

I don't think a supercar is necessary for BMW. As I said, something along the lines of a new Z8 would be nice. I would love to move to something more upscale than the M3 but BMW has no better drivers car for me to move to. That would necessitate moving to a different brand unfortunately, so there is a hole in the lineup.

It's maybe a difference in how we view the success. You see it as Audi re-badging a Gallardo (as I also stated) and nothing more but I believe Audi took the decision several years ago when they purchased Lamborghini to eventually build their own supercar and that the RS4 engine was only developed as a N/A to first showcase they too are capable of truly great engines and I believe was always destined for the R8. You may say it performance in both the RS4 and R8 isn't that great, that is debatable but if so it's not the engine that's at fault but the extra weight and awd system both are having to carry. Point is I believe the purchase of Lambo was a means to an end for Audi get their own supercar and reagrdless of how you view it the car has been a sales success and has been accepted as supercar in it's own right, giving Audi's imagine a much needed boost along the way.

I am pretty sure if Audi hadn't done it the way they did the R8 would also have fell flat on it's face just like the original M1 did. I just think it's a risk that BMW don't need to take just to prove to the world that they are capable.

P.S.

Hopefully the 5.2L V10 will readdress the performance issues that DO plague the baby R8. Though there is no denying that the rest of the car is very capable with handling that is probably better than either Gallardo or the F430.

But enough about the R8, I have explained how I reckon BMW should go about it and no one has to agree with me which is quite alright.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

It's maybe a difference in how we view the success. You see it as Audi re-badging a Gallardo (as I also stated) and nothing more but I believe Audi took the decision several years ago when they purchased Lamborghini to eventually build their own supercar and that the RS4 engine was only developed as a N/A to first showcase they too are capable of truly great engines and I believe was always destined for the R8. You may say it performance in both the RS4 and R8 isn't that great, that is debatable but if so it's not the engine that's at fault but the extra weight and awd system both are having to carry. Point is I believe the purchase of Lambo was a means to an end for Audi get their own supercar and reagrdless of how you view it the car has been a sales success and has been accepted as supercar in it's own right, giving Audi's imagine a much needed boost along the way.

I am pretty sure if Audi hadn't done it the way they did the R8 would also have fell flat on it's face just like the original M1 did. I just think it's a risk that BMW don't need to take just to prove to the world that they are capable.

P.S.

Hopefully the 5.2L V10 will readdress the performance issues that DO plague the baby R8. Though there is no denying that the rest of the car is very capable with handling that is probably better than either Gallardo or the F430.

But enough about the R8, I have explained how I reckon BMW should go about it and no one has to agree with me which is quite alright.

The 5.2 liter V10 coming definitely signals the chassis needed more power to begin with. The R8, despite their claims, is not a base 911 competitor as it is way too much money to be one. It is 911 turbo money... and well... if you are going to price yourself like Porsche you better perform like Porsche. Issue now is, with the V10, why not just step up and get the Lambo?

I think Audi planned to use Lambo to bolster their own image all along. If Audi was going to produce a mid-engine sports car to rival the 911 without having anything like Lambo to support it, people would think that was a joke. Without Lambo, Audi couldn't do it, and vice versa I suppose. Although a Lambo is always a Lambo with or without Audi.

The M1 falling flat on its face? Bit of a different market then, and it is highly collectible and had a far more limited run. It was simply a different kind of car atmosphere and a different era. It can be viewed as successful simply based on its legacy. It WAS a supercar, the R8 isn't. The R8 wasn't built for homologation purposes as the M1, and the M1 WAS a racing success. The R8 is a marketing exercise. I don't see how the M1 fell on its face, it did what it was designed to do.

[darkcloud]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

audi already gives us their turbo inline 4's^

Yes, but they still price the car as just shy of the V6 328i. BMW is too clustered in $30k range. To have to cars of very different styles yet still kind of alike in a way vying for attention. I still believe they went a touch over board on the 1er price scale as to not offend the elitist BMW individuals. The 128i should be starting more around $26k, not $31k. Which is a substantial price jump especially to entice first time car buyers, college grads or weekend warriors that want a fun little upscale car.

Originally Posted by G5Ti

It would be neat, but not likely to elevate brand image.

Plus, you really have to think about which brand image BMW wants to continue with in the future.

On the one hand, you have the purists -- those who long for the days when BMW built light, easily maintained sporting cars for reasonable amounts of money. On the other, you have the majority of the modern fleet: heavy, feature-laden cars with monster motors to keep the performance high.

They both have their place, but it seems the market won't allow you to cater to both groups. BMW has shown an interest in going for the "prestige" brand rather than the "performance" brand. An ultra-high-dollar supercar is unlikely to please either group, and Ferrari/Lamborghini enthusiasts will just balk and laugh and then not drive their cars more than 10 miles a year, hoping to keep the resale value stupidly high.

What I would love to see BMW try is something like this:

Continue with regular BMW models being excellent balances of performance and luxury. M models will continue to "dilute the brand" (so say the purists) and be insanely powerful, over-the-top vehicles with all the bells and whistles. Immense performance for every driver.

Add this mystical tii line to help appease the purists; keep prices in-check, and offer more "stripped" versions of the cars (sadly, still have to meet lame Federal regulations so this will never be perfect). Some smaller motors would be okay, but even a Porsche-style concentration on the I6 motor (both NA and TT) would reduce testing necessities for bringing vehicles to the US market. Lose the sunroofs, the power seats, the gimmicky this and that and just let people build the cars a la carte.

That said, the M1 Homage is über-hot to my eyes. At first, I hated it, then I kept looking at it. It either burned a spot on my cornea and my brain gave up trying to figure it or out, or else I had an ah-ha moment and realized I appreciate its modern reinterpretation of the original masterpiece (which itself is kind of ungainly and awkward until you spot it at various angles).

If introduced at an R8 price-point, an M1 Homage might sell, but probably not enough to make development worthwhile. If the economy improves enough, a Le Mans-derived supercar could be feasible, but unlikely to alter the brand image at-large. It might, however, attract less affluent customers to the tii vehicles and 1- and 3-series models.

Really, it's impossible to say. You can do all the marketing research and focus group stuff you want, but consumers are fickle, crazy nut-jobs. We make BMW's job very, very hard.

We think a like. In the end it is the consumers fault for being narrow minded. Personally I would love to see a very wide range of cars from 1 single company such as BMW, Benz of Audi since they have the most ability to do so as of now.

We could finally figure out what to do with lesser brands who flush money down the toilet on crap cars.

[footie]

sticky,

I see Audi have built a race version of the R8 to compete in GT3. Maybe it will end up as successful in motorsport as it has been commercially.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by footie

I was only using the R8 as an example of a manufacturer better know for producing beautifully built and fast but ultimately boring and safe motorcars in the eyes of the majority. No one would have thought that Audi would succeed where both BMW and Mercedes have failed. I put that down to basically re-badging a Gallardo and put it's technology into and equally beautiful shell, but the re-badge on it's own wouldn't have been enough, Audi had to be seen as the saviour to Lamborghini, to turn that failing company around and make it appear to the rest of the world that Audi's technical know-how was responsible for Lamboghini's success. This alone is the reason in my eyes as to why the R8 has been accepted as an equal to Porsche, Ferrari and even Lamborghini but Audi wisely keep it's pricing modest by supercar standard, after all it is still an Audi.

Audi succeed first time round, with BMW they have already tried with the M1 and sadly that car fell flat of it's face, to revive their supercar program and base it on a car that failed last time round it wrong. BMW have the ability to build an amazing good supercar but is ability enough to win over buyers, that is the only point I was trying to make and not turn it into an Audi vs BMW thing.



Audi were lucky, at that time Lamborghini were in problems and regardless of their failings they were the one true rival to the greatest supercar company of them all (Ferrari). BMW don't have the luxury of a failing supercar brand to buy out, but if they can ride the current economical storm there may well be a few to pick from.

I understand what you're saying. True points, and I'd like for this not to be an Audi/BMW thread as well.

I just want to address that the M1 failure was more of Lamborghini's wrong-doing than BMW's. BMW handed the car over to Lambo. Lamborghini's financial situation forced them to hand the car back over to BMW after only seven prototypes were built. It's mostly a matter of poor coordination between the two companies, not simply BMW.

It's not fair to draw comparisons and say that BMW fell flat on its face with its first attempt and compare it to the R8. Different times, different financial situations (although I guess they're pretty similar right now), and Lambo ended up hurting, not aiding, development.

[Year's_End]

I would also say it's going too far to call the R8 "underperforming" for the money, Sticky. If I had 150k and was "forced" to buy a new car, chances are I'd be going straight for a white R8 with CF side blades.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

I would also say it's going too far to call the R8 "underperforming" for the money, Sticky. If I had 150k and was "forced" to buy a new car, chances are I'd be going straight for a white R8 with CF side blades.

Chances are you would be seeing my taillights, except on an extremely tight road course . You would look good in the process though.

For 150k, there is no substitute. I would rather have a Gallardo as well, and its possible to pick it up cheaper.

I was on the list for the R8 actually. My dealership didn't pony up the cash to deal R8's and my deposit was returned.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Chances are you would be seeing my taillights, except on an extremely tight road course . You would look good in the process though.

For 150k, there is no substitute. I would rather have a Gallardo as well, and its possible to pick it up cheaper.

I was on the list for the R8 actually. My dealership didn't pony up the cash to deal R8's and my deposit was returned.

Are you sure about this?

I dunno. I think the R8 is the best car you can get for that money. Sure, the GTR and ZR1 annihilate it performance-wise, but as an overall car, I think it's the best choice.