Small RWD, non-luxury sedan?

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by jpnh

People dont need cars either

They should just use public transportation

Are we going to be silly about this? Of COURSE people need cars. That much is obvious: whether it's a human driven car or autonomous, people need to go places where public transportation doesn't exist, isn't practical, or is undesirable.

The regular person DOESN'T need gages beyond fuel, speed, and MAYBE rpm. Most of them don't even know what the gages are reporting and they will just be confused. My car (presumably yours too) has an oil temp gage and I use it to determine when my car is warmed up so I can get on the power. I'm not the average driver by a long shot though. I guarantee 90%+ of people with a 135i/335/whatever think that's the water temperature or something and completely ignore it because they don't know what it means until a red light goes on and tells them the car is too hot.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Are we going to be silly about this? Of COURSE people need cars. That much is obvious: whether it's a human driven car or autonomous, people need to go places where public transportation doesn't exist, isn't practical, or is undesirable.

The regular person DOESN'T need gages beyond fuel, speed, and MAYBE rpm. Most of them don't even know what the gages are reporting and they will just be confused. My car (presumably yours too) has an oil temp gage and I use it to determine when my car is warmed up so I can get on the power. I'm not the average driver by a long shot though. I guarantee 90%+ of people with a 135i/335/whatever think that's the water temperature or something and completely ignore it because they don't know what it means until a red light goes on and tells them the car is too hot.

Not silly at all

I find it amusing when people start telling others what they need and dont need

Ultimately we dont really need cars.......they just make like a lot more convenient.....and many of us love automobiles which is why we're here in the first place

So when I hear someone try to TELL me that I dont need something that I value quite a bit and use daily I laugh

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by jpnh

So when I hear someone try to TELL me that I dont need something that I value quite a bit and use daily I laugh

I'm not telling you what YOU need, I'm telling you what the average driver needs and believe it or not cars are designed for the mass market not a very small group of enthusiasts. Believe me, we're in the same boat...But you're not the average driver. First clue is you're on this forum posting about cars. The average driver could give a ****, believe me.

Anyway, there's a great thing called OBD2 and you can hook up a tablet and have 100x more info than any manufacturer is gonna give you on the dash. This is what I do cuz frankly having ONE interesting gage on my dash doesn't cut it. Try it sometime if you're really into looking at the car's data you probably won't go back. MHD has a free app for android with all kinds of sweet info, all you you need is a cheap cable and OTG USB.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

I'm not telling you what YOU need, I'm telling you what the average driver needs and believe it or not cars are designed for the mass market not a very small group of enthusiasts. Believe me, we're in the same boat...But you're not the average driver. First clue is you're on this forum posting about cars. The average driver could give a ****, believe me.

Anyway, there's a great thing called OBD2 and you can hook up a tablet and have 100x more info than any manufacturer is gonna give you on the dash. This is what I do cuz frankly having ONE interesting gage on my dash doesn't cut it. Try it sometime if you're really into looking at the car's data you probably won't go back. MHD has a free app for android with all kinds of sweet info, all you you need is a cheap cable and OTG USB.

I know, I've gone the route of obdii and an old iphone for the time being but it looks like shit and my 20 something k $$ VW has a better set of guages/instrumentation than my 2 series bimmer......wake the fuck up BMW.....

On the other hand thank god I only have first world problems in my life right now and moms cancer is officially in remission.....

[The Wind Breezes]

Good for you and your mom, that shit is as stressful as it gets.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Nearly nobody needs RWD, it's an enthusiast only thing in passenger cars and more enthusiasts than would admit don't "need" it either. FWD is also less expensive, so....done.

No one needs small, RWD sports cars either, yet there are a number of those on the market.

So it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

[Joe240]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I wish GM (or anyone for that matter) would build a small (relatively speaking), non-luxury, RWD sedan. They simply don't exist and that's a shame.

FWIW, this discussion spun off from this thread:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1334761

We veered off topic so, I broke it out to a separate thread.

It looks like this thread is starting to veer off course as well.

I think people forget that chevy did build a rwd sedan, that's based on the Camaro platform (old one) and is available with 3 pedals.

You can pick up a certified preowned SS with low mileage for around 30-35k at the moment. http://www.gmcertified.com Good luck finding a CPO with 3 pedals though.

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No one needs small, RWD sports cars either, yet there are a number of those on the market.

So it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

The entire point of a sports car is performance, so yeah I'd imagine some of em still have RWD. A sedan? Well, personally I love performance sedans but it seems most consumers disagree.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

The entire point of a sports car is performance, so yeah I'd imagine some of em still have RWD. A sedan? Well, personally I love performance sedans but it seems most consumers disagree.

Consumers do love performance sedans too though. Hence the M3, M5, and all of their competitors. Not to mention the Charger Hellcat, an example of a non-luxury high performance sedan.

You want this to be a simple discussion - "Nope, people just don't want that". Your posts have a tone that suggests you know exactly why people want product X but not similar product Y. It does not come off as particularly genuine to me, and it's making for a very abrasive style of discussion.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Joe240

It looks like this thread is starting to veer off course as well.

I think people forget that chevy did build a rwd sedan, that's based on the Camaro platform (old one) and is available with 3 pedals.

You can pick up a certified preowned SS with low mileage for around 30-35k at the moment. http://www.gmcertified.com Good luck finding a CPO with 3 pedals though.

The SS is a product with a lot of value. However, its not small. It's 11 inches longer than an M3 (or 3 Series). It's really in the same size class as the next segment up - 5 Series and it's competition. In fact, it's not much smaller than a Dodge Charger. So at the point I consider an SS, I'll just get a Charger 492 or even a Hellcat. Sure, the price is higher, but I am willing to pay more for the beefier engines with more power.

What I am thinking of ideally is something no larger than an F80 M3, and ideally 180" or less.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tjswarbrick

Whenever I start to think one of these sounds like a good idea, I realize I'd be more likely to pick up a used BMW.
Which I did!

Used cars have their place and represent a great option for the right circumstances, no doubt.

For a long term daily driver, I want a new vehicle warranty, and I want things like a modern cockpit and safety equipment. Doesn't have to be flashy, just up to date. A sedan based on a Mustang (though that car has gotten a bit large these days as well) or even better, an FRS, as you suggested, if it were given the power level it deserves would be just fine. Doesn't have to be cheap either - up to $65k is reasonable for the right performance.

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You want this to be a simple discussion - "Nope, people just don't want that". Your posts have a tone that suggests you know exactly why people want product X but not similar product Y. It does not come off as particularly genuine to me, and it's making for a very abrasive style of discussion.

Well, you have a point, and I apologize. I'll keep the mind open. Now, it seems to me these are all pretty specialist cars that are primarily purchased as status symbols (I want the most expensive, sickest BMW, I want the most badass charger...) and part of the reason they have status is the performance...the buyer may appreciate it, but if it was their main concern I think you'd see a lot more of these cars on the track. They're out there, don't get me wrong, but not in the numbers you'd expect given the means of the owners.

[Ramos]

Doesn't the ATS fit the bill of what you're looking for?

[Unknown_Car]

Originally Posted by jpnh

GM has been making RWD vehicles for like 70+ years

Its not like they dont have lots of options.......including the existing corvette that they could transplant into most anything they wanted

Lets not pretend that this is a difficult thing to do or that GM has to create anything from scratch here

Government will have to bailout them again. If they will try to make something, they will go bankrupt.

[Joe240]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Doesn't the ATS fit the bill of what you're looking for?

Kind of, except it's a luxury car. He's looking non-luxury

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by Joe240

It looks like this thread is starting to veer off course as well.

I think people forget that chevy did build a rwd sedan, that's based on the Camaro platform (old one) and is available with 3 pedals.

You can pick up a certified preowned SS with low mileage for around 30-35k at the moment. http://www.gmcertified.com Good luck finding a CPO with 3 pedals though.

You can buy a brand new Chevy SS for the same price or just a little more. Why the hell would you want a CPO if you can a brand new one at the same price or a little more? Check autotrader if you don't think its true.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Joe240

Kind of, except it's a luxury car. He's looking non-luxury

What does that even mean? Why not a stripped 230i?

[Joe240]

230i is 2 door. He mentioned 4 door sedan.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Well, you have a point, and I apologize. I'll keep the mind open. Now, it seems to me these are all pretty specialist cars that are primarily purchased as status symbols (I want the most expensive, sickest BMW, I want the most badass charger...) and part of the reason they have status is the performance...the buyer may appreciate it, but if it was their main concern I think you'd see a lot more of these cars on the track. They're out there, don't get me wrong, but not in the numbers you'd expect given the means of the owners.

I agree that status is a motivating factor in many of these purchases. For whatever reason, it seems that coupes tend to check that "status" box better for performance freaks. That is, at least for smaller vehicles or non-luxury ones. On the other hand, however, once you are willing to pony up $100k+, the four door options become plentiful. In fact, they begin to outnumber coupes - at least the ones with back seats. I suppose that may be partly due to the fact that buyers who aren't interested in utility begin to prefer true two-seat, purpose built sports cars in this price range. It is a very interesting market dynamic.

Originally Posted by Ramos

Doesn't the ATS fit the bill of what you're looking for?

No more so than an M3 really, which I already have. Yes these are great cars, even at over $60k starting price, but the value equation has a lot of room for improvement. It would be great to have some right-sized performance sedans to choose from with $-per-hp levels closer to pony car territory.

Imagine an M3 (or ATS-V if you prefer) sized sedan (or ideally, even a little smaller as I noted earlier) priced like and able to perform like a Camaro SS. Or, since I mentioned pricing of up to $65k in a post above, imagine the same, but with the price and performance of a ZL1. This type of performance value just doesn't exist for small-ish sedans. The only thing even remotely close is the Charger Hellcat, but it is very large and as a result it is very heavy. It is not a nimble, tossable vehicle. At $65k, despite it's over 250hp advantage over an M3, it cannot come close to the driving dynamics of a stripped M3 for about the same money. And the lesser-powered, lower priced V8 Chargers obviously don't fix this size/weight problem, although they certainly have more palatable asking prices.

By the way, I'm not unhappy with my M3. I love the car, in fact. As I mentioned in the OP, this discussion sort of just spun off another one. I have raised the topic before, however. I just think it is an interesting omission from the marketplace that, from my perspective anyway, you would think some automaker would have jumped into. I can't figure out why people don't seem to want cars like this. But then, I am also befuddled by the fact that the M4 still outsells the M3 handily (apparently, that is; we don't have numbers yet from BMW, and won't until production ends) while the M5 on the other hand easily outsells the M6 (omitting the GC).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jmg

What does that even mean?

Fair question.

https://www.edmunds.com/luxury/

Sure, there is some subjectivity due to odd-balls like Kia K900 (Kia isn't typically a luxury automaker).

KBB makes an even more liberal interpretation, throwing in some cars from typically non-luxury makes based on absolute price, or apparently even price relative to the rest of the lineup:

https://www.kbb.com/luxury-car/

I'd probably take the intersection of these two sets, maybe toss out the Kia, and go with that.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Roma_335i

Government will have to bailout them again. If they will try to make something, they will go bankrupt.

Taxpayers are footing the bill for something like $9,000 of every volt products so......how could it be any worse to product a limited run ATS-V RWD sedan with a monstrously powerful V-8 and a 6MT

All of which are existing components.....

On the other hand....this IS GM.....yea...you're right.....it will be a disaster

[mxa121]

No matter where I turn on forums, eventually people long for the "E46 style" vehicle. BMW inflated the 3 series too much.

Ultimately, this is what the 2 series needs to evolve into. BMW could make lots of money making a 2 series sedan. I believe they could sell many many 2.0L autos which would allow them to make a hotter 3.0L turbo manual model for us nuts.

Earlier comments about easy to develop, most of you are right. The development cost of even using common parts to put it together, is a massive undertaking.

GM, Ford, or Chrysler could do it, but I am not sure they can see profitability.
The ATS-V which is currently available is it.
The SS is too big, and looks like a Malibu.
A Mustang sedan would be too big.
A Focus RS is a good option, although AWD hatch. If you want non luxury, performance, manual, 4 door, I would buy one of those.

How about a Dart SRT? Lots of cost to develop that car up to that level, but it would be COOL.