Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

And that generic corporate GM interior kills it completely.

I soon as I saw this thread, I was waiting on the "Yeah, but the interior sucks" post and boom, there you have it.

Lol.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

BMW has fully ditched DCT anyways and don’t even offer a manual in the M5.

Porsche is the only mainstream brand that is still pushing DCT...besides exotics like Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, etc.

GM is actually building cars like BMW use too. BMW’s were never the most powerful or fastest in a straight line. They use build pure drivers cars.

The ATS was the same way. GMs error was not fitting the manual to the 3.6.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

BMW has fully ditched DCT anyways and don’t even offer a manual in the M5.

Just to be clear, BMW hasn't offered the manual transmission in the M5 for quite some time. The last year it was available it was only offered in the USA (isn't that a switch?) after a bunch of bellyaching about not having one. And then hardly anyone bought it.

Just because Cadillac says they offer one doesn't mean any dealers will order it that way or that any of us may ever see one with a manual. Complaints about BMW ditching the manuals in most of their USA models have to be taken with a dose of the facts that most people don't order their new cars that way. Makes it very difficult for those of us who buy used to hope to see a manual BMW ever again.

Mine currently:
Too many -02-series manuals to count 4-sp and 5-sp
(2) E28 5-sp sticks
E34 5-sp stick
E39 5-sp stick
E82 6-sp stick
(5) BMW bikes 4-sp, 5-sp, and 6-sp
'84 Toyota pickup 5-sp

[stein_325i]

Can't believe we live in an age where people complain that 0-60 in 3.7 seconds is by all means "slow." Seriously?

These are driver's cars, not straight line Novocain machines like some of its competitors.

[heavyD^2]

It's nice that GM makes these even if nobody will buy them. The droopy headlights and taillights kill the look for me. IMO last gen looked better on the outside.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Can't believe we live in an age where people complain that 0-60 in 3.7 seconds is by all means "slow." Seriously?

These are driver's cars, not straight line Novocain machines like some of its competitors.

You don’t understand because I doubt you have any experience with heavy, high powered, RWD-only cars. On a normal street, it will be struggling for traction just like any Hellcat. You will never be able to put the power fully down. With this power/weight ratio, it should easily be running sub 3.0. Probably fun to drive on the track and a struggle on cold and rainy days. But then the question - why would you choose this four door sedan as your dedicated track car? There is a reason why the German competitors have all implemented an AWD in their high powered sedans. This was not to steal the driving joy from “enthusiasts” like you but to make the power safe and usable.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

You don't understand because I doubt you have any experience with heavy, high powered, RWD-only cars. On a normal street, it will be struggling for traction just like any Hellcat. You will never be able to put the power fully down. With this power/weight ratio, it should easily be running sub 3.0. Probably fun to drive on the track and a struggle on cold and rainy days. But then the question - why would you choose this four door sedan as your dedicated track car? There is a reason why the German competitors have all implemented an AWD in their high powered sedans. This was not to steal the driving joy from "enthusiasts" like you but to make the power safe and usable.

Why would anyone choose a fat sedan or especially a stupid SUV as a track car? I have lots of friends who are track rats and they all have actual sports cars for the track; aside from some GT3's, I struggle to think of any that even pretend to have rear seats, much less nancy awd.

Some people like to drive the car to the limits and occasionally f things up, but know that you had something to do with either result. Some of these current awd things seem about as fun as just turning on your PS5 and "driving" on it.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

You don't understand because I doubt you have any experience with heavy, high powered, RWD-only cars. On a normal street, it will be struggling for traction just like any Hellcat. You will never be able to put the power fully down. With this power/weight ratio, it should easily be running sub 3.0. Probably fun to drive on the track and a struggle on cold and rainy days. But then the question - why would you choose this four door sedan as your dedicated track car? There is a reason why the German competitors have all implemented an AWD in their high powered sedans. This was not to steal the driving joy from "enthusiasts" like you but to make the power safe and usable.

Well you know what they say about assumptions, so maybe you shouldn't make them, especially when they are the opposite of someone's experience. I've driven the prior two CTS-V's, Hellcats and Challengers, GT500's, a Hennessy HPE750 Supercharged Mustang, F10 M5, etc. I have plenty of experience.

My comment is not about the lack of AWD, nor about the capabilities or lack there of a high-horsepower RWD vehicle, I'm simply just stating how sad it is that that people care so much about 0-60 times now that they complain at very quick and respectable numbers like 3.7 as "slow," despite it being plenty quick. That is all. 0-60 numbers are not everything in a car, just like @JamesNoBrakes said.

Its not just the Cadillac, the Cadi just happens to be an example where that type of post has come up. I see posts like this on even faster cars with AWD and high-horsepower, such as the RS6/7 which does low 3's, or the Macan Turbo which does it under 4-seconds which is pretty quick for a two ton SUV. Hell I've even seen you complain that the RS6 is "slow," which makes no sense from my point of view that a low 3-second vehicle is "slow." Even compared to its class, its been tested at a difference of .02 which is not very noticeable.

Adding AWD may reduce wheel-spin but that doesn't mean the car is still usable on main roads or that it's better to drive. Even with AWD cars like the M5 for example have limits that are far too high for the street. Tesla is making a car that does 0-60 in sub 2-seconds, but what's the point? To beat a couple idiots at a stoplight?

I am simply congratulating Cadillac for making two driver's cars, that don't care about having the best 0-60 time or being the quickest in its class, but rather bringing the manual back one more time and putting a focus onto driving and optimizing these cars for track while going against the norm. We've already established that sales will be low and limited, so those people don't mind the lack of AWD. Cadillac is not making a car for someone like you who prioritizes turbo's, AWD and straight line speed, but some of us even if a small minority are interested. I for one have the CT4 on my shortlist.

[Mingwan]

It’s too bad you can’t get the V8 in the CT4. I think the CT4 looks much better, particularly the side profile. The side profile of the CT5 reminds me a lot of an accord....

[See5]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I do give them credit. Like I said, all the internet enthusiasts will like this car but no one will actually buy it. GM seems to know it and plans to make a very limited number of those. There is just a very small number of people needing a RWD, manual transmission four dour sedan on Sport Cup tires - this is the undeniable truth. Maybe JamesNoBrakes or jstein55 will buy one, I don’t know, but very likely they won’t. If anyone will ever need something in this direction, will likely opt for one of the well-rounded German competitors which can btw also be driven in pure RWD mode. So, yes, bravo to GM to even consider making such a car. A moral victory right there.

Every car in this class is made in limited numbers.

This car isn't on SC2's either. It wears 4S just like everyone else.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

It's too bad you can't get the V8 in the CT4. I think the CT4 looks much better, particularly the side profile. The side profile of the CT5 reminds me a lot of an accord....

Agree, that would be icing on the cake. I would love an LT2 in there, but I guess they don't want internal competition in the lineup.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

It’s too bad you can’t get the V8 in the CT4. I think the CT4 looks much better, particularly the side profile. The side profile of the CT5 reminds me a lot of an accord....

I agree. CT4 looks better. The CT5 rear part bothers me.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by See5

Every car in this class is made in limited numbers.
.

I’m confused, too. Which class of cars is this? Mention some of the competitors please.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Well you know what they say about assumptions, so maybe you shouldn't make them, especially when they are the opposite of someone's experience. I've driven the prior two CTS-V's, Hellcats and Challengers, GT500's, a Hennessy HPE750 Supercharged Mustang, F10 M5, etc. I have plenty of experience.

My comment is not about the lack of AWD, nor about the capabilities or lack there of a high-horsepower RWD vehicle, I'm simply just stating how sad it is that that people care so much about 0-60 times now that they complain at very quick and respectable numbers like 3.7 as "slow," despite it being plenty quick. That is all. 0-60 numbers are not everything in a car, just like @JamesNoBrakes said.

Its not just the Cadillac, the Cadi just happens to be an example where that type of post has come up. I see posts like this on even faster cars with AWD and high-horsepower, such as the RS6/7 which does low 3's, or the Macan Turbo which does it under 4-seconds which is pretty quick for a two ton SUV. Hell I've even seen you complain that the RS6 is "slow," which makes no sense from my point of view that a low 3-second vehicle is "slow." Even compared to its class, its been tested at a difference of .02 which is not very noticeable.

Adding AWD may reduce wheel-spin but that doesn't mean the car is still usable on main roads or that it's better to drive. Even with AWD cars like the M5 for example have limits that are far too high for the street. Tesla is making a car that does 0-60 in sub 2-seconds, but what's the point? To beat a couple idiots at a stoplight?

I am simply congratulating Cadillac for making two driver's cars, that don't care about having the best 0-60 time or being the quickest in its class, but rather bringing the manual back one more time and putting a focus onto driving and optimizing these cars for track while going against the norm. We've already established that sales will be low and limited, so those people don't mind the lack of AWD. Cadillac is not making a car for someone like you who prioritizes turbo's, AWD and straight line speed, but some of us even if a small minority are interested. I for one have the CT4 on my shortlist.

You are making just as many (false) assumptions as I do. Look, Stein, you and I have obviously a very different view at cars. I respect that. I like high powered, quick, yet practical daily drivers (wife, one year old son, dog, golf as hobby) but I also like dedicated sports cars like 911 and L. You seem to fall for everything that has a MT and RWD. You also don’t like the modern BMWs for the “lack of steering feel”. That is totally fine with me, even though I find it slightly hypocritical coming from a guy who has a five meter mild hybrid Mercedes limo as his daily. We might never become internet buddies but we should treat each other with mutual respect. Have a great day

[See5]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I’m confused, too. Which class of cars is this? Mention some of the competitors please.

Every 600+ midsize forced induction V8 sports sedan.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by See5

Every 600+ midsize forced induction V8 sports sedan.

So how many of those are there on the market?

I can think of a Dodge Charger Hellcat, but those are not made in limited numbers. Any other cars?

[heavyD^2]

Limiting the numbers is smart actually. It will ensure they can sell most of them near MSRP and not have to heavily discount them like they had to with the ATS-V which was a really great car. The issue is that anyone that buys a Cadillac is getting an SUV not the sedans.

[Alfisti]

The headlights are brutal, just brutal, so many modern cars are insanely ugly.

[infinitekidM2C]

That aint your gramma's caddy.

[cfm56d7b]

With a subsidized lease, this car will be undoubtedly attractive to buyers less sensitive to badge prestige.

[ASAP]

Do you guys remember when the ATS V came out and it was touted as this M3 killer...? Well I do... and I haven't seen one on the road in the last 5 years lol.

[RMachuca3d]

Loving the ct4v bw, i’m sure all 250 of them are already sold. For once, i dont find the price is out of whack for the performance/equipment you get. Curious 2-3 years from now to see how they fair in the used market.