What exactly is a "prop firearm"?

[floridaorange]

Found this on social media - I think it must be from a producer.

". I went back through my old emails to look at how we handled prop guns on my films. Countless of back-and-forth exchanges to make sure we were using the safest methods possible. So much planning goes into the use of prop guns on set. And I found this advice from someone back in 2010: "There is really no good reason to fire blanks... they blow out the audio gear, and don't really look right without additional doctoring in post. You'll do better with airsoft guns, a good actor doing recoils, and anyone who knows how to use After Effects. I can tell you for a fact that many, many major film and television productions are no longer firing blanks on set, because of all the obvious hazards of deafeningly loud, firebreathing machinery around people."

The fact that this production told the union workers they had to leave or be escorted out by security because of safety concerns so they could be replaced by a non union crew - if that is in fact the case - I cannot comprehend it. Definitely need more facts about how, why and what actually took place.

An article that goes into detail about guns on set:

https://www.manopause.com/entertainm...-safety-44879/

and

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/10482...movie-set-rare

[Nativetexan]

If I'm a "prop gun master person" and I know that I'm bringing x number of "props" on set and that we are only using blanks or whatever (besides live rounds)…then wouldn't I leave home ON PURPOSE any live rounds so not to have them onsite?

Seems to me they wanted live rounds for the "authenticity" in certain scenes and certain scenes they're okay with "blanks".

Sad sad story.

[shimmy23]

I still don't understand how real ammo finds its way onto the set. The handler or person that us in charge of the prop as well as the actor should check the chamber before "acting" the scene. Live ammo should be removed from the set entirely so there is no confusion. This was totally preventable as most gun accidents are. Tragic and also frustrating for me to read about this

[EnVe46]

This is common gun safety. Period. There are several basic rules for gun safety and one of them is to treat every weapon as a live weapon. You should NOT handle a weapon of any type without FULLY understanding its abilities and the proper handling of it. Everyone should be held responsible, right down to Alec, for this incident- that is if it was live ammunition. We don't know all the details yet. However, instead of this being used as a perfect example of gun safety, it'll be spun to how bad guns are.

[zx10guy]

I wonder how things were handled in that one scene in Act of Valor where they used live ammo during the water extraction scene. Granted the guys firing are trained military.

Anyways, just sad on so many levels. No matter what you think of Alec, just looking at his distraught face and reaction afterwards just tears into me.

[floridaorange]

A lot of conjecture at this point - we don't know all the facts - there will be a thorough investigation and the type of projectile will then be determined. A blank can sometimes fire off shrapnel.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I wonder how things were handled in that one scene in Act of Valor where they used live ammo during the water extraction scene. Granted the guys firing are trained military.

Dunno anything about that scene, but I would imagine #1 you have trained people who know how to handle guns, but #2 you KNOW you are using live rounds so you would take necessary precautions... like not having anyone in front of the gun. If you think you are firing blanks you may not take as many precautions.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Dunno anything about that scene, but I would imagine #1 you have trained people who know how to handle guns, but #2 you KNOW you are using live rounds so you would take necessary precautions... like not having anyone in front of the gun. If you think you are firing blanks you may not take as many precautions.

Yes. Definitely trained people firing the live rounds. But doesn't make it any less dangerous. The live rounds were from the minigun and I think the 50 cals on the gun boats. Here's the scene in question:

[tcphoto]

The articles I've read on the "Rust" movie set said the Camera Operators and support had issues with the Producers. They were working long hours, staying in hotel 50 miles from the set and safety measures were not taken. They weren't satisfied with the progress and arrived that morning at 6am and started gathering their gear. The Producers had NonUnion workers there to continue shooting and the accident happened just before 2pm.

As far as weapons are concerned, they seem to be loaded with paper, plastic or other materials. The prop arms have to be checked twice, safety reviews and training for actors and one Armour controls the prop arms at all times. It is a mystery why there were live rounds in the firearm Alec was given but I'm sure it will all come out in the investigation.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by ///d

Agreed, one blank injuring someone is a fluke, but two or more blanks injuring multiple people is suspicious.

With the reports of tension with the crews I feel like this is going to become a revenge thing and someone intentionally swapped out rounds. I doubt actors do a check before hand, they likely just pick it up from a table where everything is supposed to be ready to go.

Also, I see you and your name, your avatar subtitle, your back the blue flag, your vehicle description, AND your location...

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered reading that the "projectile" from the alleged blank round went through the body of the deceased and continued on to the person behind her and injuring that person as well.

[bosstones]

Granted I only skimmed this thread so I may have missed someone stating or posting it, but my understanding is that the Armorer is the one that doles out the prop guns and ensures their status.

Things I'd be interested to know are:
1. What were the dynamics when the gun went off (eg on-set goofing or actual scene filming)?
2. Is it part of protocol for the director's assistant to hand out the props or is it strictly the Armorer's responsibility?
3. Was the Armorer among the Union workers that were off set?
4. If everyone, including actors/actresses, handling a prop gun (real or rubber) learns/knows/follows standard safe firearm handling protocols.

I read somewhere that there were a couple of other, recent incidents involving prop guns on the Rust set. Not sure if that is true but I hope not. This is certainly tragic but a poor safety record leading in would somehow make it worse.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by bosstones

Granted I only skimmed this thread so I may have missed someone stating or posting it, but my understanding is that the Armorer is the one that doles out the prop guns and ensures their status.

Things I'd be interested to know are:
1. What were the dynamics when the gun went off (eg on-set goofing or actual scene filming)?
2. Is it part of protocol for the director's assistant to hand out the props or is it strictly the Armorer's responsibility?
3. Was the Armorer among the Union workers that were off set?
4. If everyone, including actors/actresses, handling a prop gun (real or rubber) learns/knows/follows standard safe firearm handling protocols.

I read somewhere that there were a couple of other, recent incidents involving prop guns on the Rust set. Not sure if that is true but I hope not. This is certainly tragic but a poor safety record leading in would somehow make it worse.

These are all questions and many many more that will be asked and answered as part of a proper police investigation.

[Tyga11]

This is really a tough one. The Assistant Director (AD) shouted 'cold gun' before handling the gun to Baldwin. Apparently the AD grabbed that gun off of a table with a few other guns. Which leads back to the armorer...for obvious reasons.

I think Baldwin bears some responsibility in this because rule #1 of gun safety is never point any gun at anyone. I don't think he deserves to go to prison based off what we know but he should be responsible for paying a hell of a payment to the victims' husband / family.

I guess the overlying problem is why they allow real guns on set like this.

[unluky]

My company actually makes brass cases for blanks. we sell them to a lot of loaders who make blanks and or dummy rounds for the movie industry.

A dummy round is a brass casing that has a bullet (also called a projectile) loaded into it. These are used for scenes where the ammunition can be seen by the audience like in a revolver or a semi-automatic magazine. They have no powder at all and either no primer at all or a dummy or fake primer. One of the biggest companies we sell to that loads these always put a single piece of lead shotgun shot in a dummy cartridge so when you pick it up it rattles for extra identification. A blank uses an extra-long case as seen above and you load a small amount of smokeless powder in front of a live primer and then apply what is called a star crimp to the top to hold it. This is what you see in the pictures above. The part that is visible in those photos is what my company makes.

In the case of Brandon Lee, the theory was the gun was loaded with dummy rounds (the ones that have a bullet/projectile in it) and used for those scenes. Somewhere during the scenes a bullet was dislodged from the cartridge case and into the barrel enough to hold it. Then when a blank was fired from the same gun the powder in the blank had enough force to push the projectile out of the gun. So a live round was never in the gun but through a tragic accident a projectile was fired and unfortunately just happened to be lined up with his body.

Since this movie will have been using revolvers, I'm sure dummy rounds were used as well as blanks.

We will just have to see what the investigation uncovers.

[Cyn-BMW]

Originally Posted by unluky

My company actually makes brass cases for blanks. we sell them to a lot of loaders who make blanks and or dummy rounds for the movie industry.

A dummy round is a brass casing that has a bullet (also called a projectile) loaded into it. These are used for scenes where the ammunition can be seen by the audience like in a revolver or a semi-automatic magazine. They have no powder at all and either no primer at all or a dummy or fake primer. One of the biggest companies we sell to that loads these always put a single piece of lead shotgun shot in a dummy cartridge so when you pick it up it rattles for extra identification. A blank uses an extra-long case as seen above and you load a small amount of smokeless powder in front of a live primer and then apply what is called a star crimp to the top to hold it. This is what you see in the pictures above. The part that is visible in those photos is what my company makes.

In the case of Brandon Lee, the theory was the gun was loaded with dummy rounds (the ones that have a bullet/projectile in it) and used for those scenes. Somewhere during the scenes a bullet was dislodged from the cartridge case and into the barrel enough to hold it. Then when a blank was fired from the same gun the powder in the blank had enough force to push the projectile out of the gun. So a live round was never in the gun but through a tragic accident a projectile was fired and unfortunately just happened to be lined up with his body.

Since this movie will have been using revolvers, I'm sure dummy rounds were used as well as blanks.

We will just have to see what the investigation uncovers.

Either that happened or someone intentionally put a real live round in the gun. My guess is the latter.

[unluky]

Originally Posted by Cyn-BMW

Either that happened or someone intentionally put a real live round in the gun. My guess is the latter.

Hating to think of the incompetence that would involve, I'm kind of leaning that way as well. Blank cartridges usually have a very small amount of powder. For it to have gone through a human and into another one sounds more like a live round.

Although weirder things have happened.

[zx10guy]

It's speculation or rumor. But I just heard of the possibility of some of the crew using that gun for after hours live fire shooting for "fun". Also being reported that the live ammunition being used for the "fun" was stored with the blanks.

Again, this is unconfirmed.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

It's speculation or rumor. But I just heard of the possibility of some of the crew using that gun for after hours live fire shooting for "fun". Also being reported that the live ammunition being used for the "fun" was stored with the blanks.

Again, this is unconfirmed.

I read that too. Also wondering why Baldwin pointed the gun and shot at someone who wasn’t an actor. They obviously weren’t shooting a scene so what gives? Were they screwing around?

[floridaorange]

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...walked-off-set

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

A colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires that he sent a text message to the unit production manager. “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by The Times.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...walked-off-set

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

A colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires that he sent a text message to the unit production manager. “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by The Times.

I hate to be 'that guy' and I know these are not your words, but these were not ACCIDENTAL discharges these were Negligent discharges.

I don't know how many here have spent any time in a gun store or around 'gun people' but you can tell the 'real' gun people from those that are not up to speed yet when a gun is passed around at a store.

With a safe group of folks every single person who touches it will make sure its clear, even if someone else checked it 5 seconds earlier in full view of everybody involved.

It is the breakdown of the simplest safety rules that allow tragedy.

I also don't understand why anyone would be standing in the line of fire of any gun, take one step in either direction and this never happens, not blaming the victim here, but these protocols should be in place.

To get the 'shot' the gun needs to be pointed where it is pointed, assume there are some plexi screens lights etc the actor may not be able to see what is beyond the target, the space beyond the target must be cleared.

[floridaorange]

Agreed which is why I think we don't have the facts yet. Been around guns since I was little - hunting - and been on set with gun handlers - there's so much about the info the the public have been given that doesn't add up at all.

[3.0L]

Nearly all tragedies are the result of a chain of decisions, or lack thereof.

In aviation, pilots making a crater usually end up there after a chain of decisions, or a chain of ignoring decaying conditions.

This case is a bit different as there were several people involved in the chain, any one of which could have prevented the tragedy, including the trigger man.