Buyer Beware

[bts]

Unfortunate story. All sorts of stuff can happen during delivery, but as you note it should be reported.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

As a postscript, I've have been a BMW owner/customer since 1971. For thirty-six years, I have recommended the BMW brand to my friends and business associates. I always thought of BMW as a corporation that was above reproach. I was wrong. From this point, I will tarnish BMW USA's reputation, as well as the selling dealer's reputation, at every available opportunity.

Let me know if you want to sell your 2002.

[ultmachine]

And another bit of information from the all-powerful E90 Fleet in this thread
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=VDC%5C

The Quote from E90 Fleet:
Wheel probably got scratched taking it onto or off the boat

VDO would have to order a new one from their stock source, which actually works a bit different from dealers stock source, then have a tire fitted and then fit it to the car.

This could easily take more than a week.


BMW doesnt have to diclose any work below 3% done at the VDO due to damage, and doesnt have to disclose things like engine swaps, because its seen as the same standard as factory work.
A number of cars even have things fixed at the factory

[JoeClothing]

Originally Posted by ultmachine

And another bit of information from the all-powerful E90 Fleet in this thread
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=VDC%5C

The Quote from E90 Fleet:
Wheel probably got scratched taking it onto or off the boat

VDO would have to order a new one from their stock source, which actually works a bit different from dealers stock source, then have a tire fitted and then fit it to the car.

This could easily take more than a week.


BMW doesnt have to diclose any work below 3% done at the VDO due to damage, and doesnt have to disclose things like engine swaps, because its seen as the same standard as factory work.
A number of cars even have things fixed at the factory

I agree. I am not sure that BMW had to disclose this. I recently took my car for bodywork at one of the absolute best bodyshops in the country. During this time I had a long conversation with the shop manager, who was telling me similar stories of people with new cars that had cosmetic work performed and they didn't even know it.
According to him cars get damaged all the time during transit and there are enormous bodyshops at the port of entry set up to fix and repair these cars. Any work done at the ports is still considered a "factory" repair, and it is done so well that no one would be able to tell other than a professional.
I do understand your point and sympathize, but unfortunately I don't think you will have much recourse.
Best of luck though....

[coffeeman]

Originally Posted by alexckma

Unfortunately, I don't really see your point at all. Yes there are different cases like the 2 that you mentioned. And unfortunately you are the owner of that mini. However, at the same time I have trouble understanding your hatred of the brand.

Problem 1 - BMW standing behind their brand has nothing to do with that particular dealer. There are great dealers and shitty dealers. It's just a fact of life, deal with it. You just so happened to have bought one that was crappy. Did you think for the people who got the lemons? Do you actually think the BMW wants to ruin their reputation because of 1 or 2 customers like you? The answer is clearly no.

On top of that, you say that you have had been a BMW customer for a long time, and because of this incident you will never buy the brand nor recommend it again. For some reason I find that you act more like a teenager than an adult. Everyone makes mistakes, and if you would like to think that BMW and associated companies are out to get you, well maybe they are. They are out to get your money, for the purchase of their cars. Not for anything else.

I sympathize with you, but also find that you don't really reason very well.

My motivation is honesty, nothing more. Disclose damage to the buyer, and let the buyer make an informed purchase decision. I don't like being lied to, and I expected more from BMW.

[luckyu]

Originally Posted by coffeeman

My motivation is honesty, nothing more. Disclose damage to the buyer, and let the buyer make an informed purchase decision. I don't like being lied to, and I expected more from BMW.

I agree. The manufacturer, importer, and dealer should disclose the damage and the repair to the customer, and the customer can decide whether they want the vehicle. BMW will not stop patching up cars at port, but maybe they'll be more up front about it.

There was one person on the old BMW Digest who would use a paint depth meter on his cars when he took delivery. Freaked out the salespeople.

[John 070]

The funny thing is if I remember the case, it took place in AL, not KY. Anyway, I was gonna do the same thing with Samsung, boycott the mofos because their service really is not good and my g/f at the time got a LCD that was defective out of the box. I had visions of suing them for a gazillion dollars, and a fancy midtown attorney with the glasses half hanging down his face said I'd easily get a gazillion, if not three. In the end the retailer exchanged the Samsung, the tv has worked fine for about 14 mos. now, and WTF??? If I don't want to buy a Samsung, it's my loss, because it's a good product relatively speaking. dang the 71 series 52" is like $2700--you think Sony or anyone else could touch that price? So you get the equivalent for a grand more and you boycott them, your loss, not theirs. But if a person has the time to sue, why not? As someone pointed out, this is America.

[KEVIN88GT]

Coffeeman while I understand the point of your thread... most of us dont have the time and/or money to pursue such fights...

you've mentioned that you have attorneys...

how much have you spend on legal fees so far????

[BK]

I already posted this on the other thread where this appears, but a couple of clarifying notes. For one thing, John 070 is right, the Gore v. BMW NA case was in Alabama, not KY. I missed that in my post in the other thread.

Another thing, the net result of the case was not $2M in punitive damages. The case went from state court ($4K actual damages, $4M punitive damages jury award) to state supreme court (punitive damages dropped to $2M) to US Supreme Court (punitive damages thrown out, case remanded) to settlement. Given the basis of the remand, the settlement would have been far less than $2M, probably attorneys' fees and a new car.

Finally, the 3% "threshold" figure mentioned above was BMW NA's old threshold for disclosing damage during shipping. Since the Gore case in 1990, BMW NA changed its policy to disclosure of ANY damage during transit. Note that this decision was prompted by that case, but was not part of any judicial decision or settlement (BMW NA reviewed and changed its policy as soon as Gore sued them).

I should add -- if the OP's car was repainted during transit and it was not disclosed, contrary to BMW NA policy, I hope he wins his case. If he does, I think he can expect a new car, but not $2M.

[myfirstbmw335i]

Originally Posted by carchrism5

i've heard of things like this too, what about if the vehicle is leased? do you guys think it makes a difference?

if the car is leased then just hand them the keys at least end....no question...even if you wreck the car during your lease you can turn in the car at lease end as long as the car was repaired correctly...

[Tag]

Coffeeman,

I am with you all the way. What they did was dishonest so take them down and make them pay!

And for those that are expressing sympathy with BMW or the dealer because you are not sure who actually "knew" about the car being damaged... let them sort out who's at fault and they can work it out. It's not coffeeman's job to figure out who, what, where, when, why and how. That's between BMW and the dealership.

As it stands now none of them will step up and address the issue which is why it's become a legal matter.

[crqflier]

No doubt you got hosed. If BWM Towson were a little smarter, they'd give you a very high trade on the Mini to keep your 335i business and then true up with BMWNA.

With that said, if you bail on the brand, is your Tii a 4 speed and are you planning on selling it?...

[shadowcoder]

Originally Posted by coffeeman

Today I canceled my order for a 2008 335xi Coupe. The following explains why..

If your prior experience taught you anything (it appears that it hasn't
though) and you like the car (I assume that to be true since you ordered
it) then you can take simple precautions so that what happened in the past,
doesn't happen again with your newly ordered car. In any case it's your
loss in my opinion, not BMW's, but I can understand...

Originally Posted by coffeeman

The following commentary is true. I am posting this not to gain sympathy, or support, but to alert others who may be unknowingly affected by similar circumstances.

I don't understand the alert awareness. Everyone in here is already alert
and definitely understands that their BMWs upon traveling possibly half the
world, could have sustained damage long before you created this thread.
And that BMW has taken measures to correct that. But your good intention
to alert us is noted and appreciated.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

First, some history...If you are familiar with Gore v. BMW, skip the two next paragraphs, if not, read on.

In 1996, a Kentucky doctor named Gore, purchased a new BMW 5 series.

Alabama, as BK already noted.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

Nine months after purchase, Dr. Gore had the vehicle detailed, and during this detailing, he was advised by the detailing shop that the entire vehicle had been painted. Needless to say, Dr. Gore was incensed, as this had not been disclosed to him at the time of delivery. Dr. Gore filed suit against BMW of North America, and the selling dealer, for fraud. During trial, it was revealed that BMW had re-painted Dr. Gore's vehicle, due to acid rain damage. Dr. Gore was seeking compensatory damages in the amount of $4,000.00, for diminished value, and punitive damages based on the amount of unjust enrichment that BMW NA had received from other non-disclosure sales of vehicles.

Dr. Gore was awarded $4,000 in compensatory damages, and $10,000,000.00

$4,000,000 as BK already noted.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

in punitive damages. BMW appealed, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court reversed the punitive damage award, and remanded the case back to State Court. The Kentucky Supreme Court lowered the punitive damage award to $2,000,000.00. BMW also agreed to, in the future, disclose ANY damage, no matter how minor, to

Well, not how things happened but BK already covered that. Moving on...

Originally Posted by coffeeman

prospective buyers of their vehicles...It appears that BMW did not learn their lesson.

What lesson was that? There is state law that determines what should be
disclosed and what not. And Mr Gore's car didn't fall in that category. Your
car doesn't fall in that category either from the sounds of it - read on.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

In April of 2007, I factory ordered a heavily optioned MINI Cooper S, from BMW/MINI of Towson, Md. I have had a long relationship with this dealer, leasing many BMW's from them. M.S.R.P. On my Cooper S was $34,500.00, which was also the agreed upon purchase price.

In May of 2007, I took delivery of the Cooper S, and was not advised of any latent defects, or damage that occurred prior to my taking delivery.

As much as I loved the MINI, my personal circumstances changed, and in October, I was in need of a larger vehicle. In November of 2007, I ordered a BMW 335xi, from BMW of Towson. When I asked my salesman if I should trade the MINI, he advised me that I would probably get the best price for the MINI by either selling it myself, or taking it to CarMax. Not wanting to deal with selling it myself, I took the MINI to CarMax.

CarMax appraised the MINI, and I commented to the appraiser that the vehicle was perfect, with no damage, dings, or other defects. The CarMax appraiser then asked me why the right rear quarter panel had been painted. I was shocked at this statement, and I advised him that I had no idea. He then proceeded to show me a tape line on the passenger side door jamb that ran from top, to bottom. He also demonstrated the texture difference between the door jamb paint, and the paint on the rear quarter panel.

While it's always possible, I find it quite hard to believe that a new car that
was damaged and repaired, went to the dealer with such obvious marks from
the repair and quality control missed it. I assume you are certain that there
is no way the car was painted while you had taken it in for a service...
assuming you had one up to that point.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

The MINI, with 8,200 miles, was appraised at $18,500.00, a far cry from the $34,500.00 that I had paid just six months ago. The appraiser would not tell

A re-painted panel for a car that was purchased for $34,500 and had 8,200
miles, wouldn't appraise for $18,500. I don't think we are getting the whole
story here. Unless the appraiser wanted to score some nice quick profit
and was hoping you were aware of the painted panel but wanted to hide it.
Which of course you weren't.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

me how much the re-painted rear quarter panel had diminished the value, but because I could not detail the extent of the undisclosed damage, I suspect that the diminished value was substantial.

Now furious, I drove directly to BMW/MINI of Towson, for some answers. I approached the sales manager, and my salesman, and explained the situation. They were both stunned, and claimed that they knew nothing about any prior damage to the vehicle. The sales manager took the vehicle to the shop, to show the service manager.

Upon his return, he stated that their inspection of the rear quarter panel was inconclusive, but that he would ask Marc Cohen, the owner's son, and General Manager of the dealership, to contact MINI USA.

What was the outcome of the dealership contacting MINI USA? Why haven't
you personally contacted them and continued to talk to the dealer since
they were surprised and you also believe they were unaware of the damage?
Why haven't you pushed to find what was the outcome of the dealer's
manager conversation with MINI USA?

Originally Posted by coffeeman

Now suspicious, I took the MINI to two different body shops. Both measured the paint thickness of each panel on the car. Every panel except the right rear quarter panel measured 6mm of paint. The right rear quarter panel measured 9 mm of paint. Both shops concluded that the right rear quarter panel had been painted, prior to delivery. The tell tale tape line in the door jamb was additional evidence of this. Both shops advised me that they would testify under oath, of their findings.

I called the MINI sales manager and advised him of my findings. I also demanded that MINI, USA repurchase the vehicle, for full price paid, less a reasonable amount for mileage. I reminded him that in the State of Maryland, it is illegal for a new car dealer to sell a vehicle that has sustained body or paint damage, without disclosing this damage to the buyer.

The State of Maryland law says more than the blanket statement you
wrote above. It's worth reading because from the sounds of it so far
BMW may have done a minor repair and they are under no obligation by
law to disclose that (a scratch in the paint warrants painting the whole
panel because BMW is not in the business of "blending in" the paint as
some bodyshops try to do most of the time unsuccessfully). Again, until
you know what they did, or we know what they did, lets not write blanket
statements on how the law applies to them, yes?

Originally Posted by coffeeman

I believe that the selling dealer (BMW/MINI of Towson) was unaware of this damage. It is my belief that the damage occurred at either the Factory, the port of exit, or the port of entry. In light of Gore v. BMW, it was MINI USA's responsibility to inform the dealer that this vehicle had been damaged, and repaired.

I have retained attorneys to file suit against MINI USA, BMW USA, and BMW/MINI of Towson, for Fraud, Non-disclosure, Diminished value, and Conspiracy.

I am curious to know how your attorneys will substantiate and support the
conspiracy part of the suit. But I think we'll never find out.

Originally Posted by coffeeman

I would strongly advise anyone considering the purchase of a new MINI Cooper, to reconsider their purchase. Failing this, I would strongly advise anyone purchasing a new MINI Cooper to have the vehicle inspected by a competent third party, PRIOR to taking delivery. Finally, if you have already purchased a new MINI Cooper, I would strongly advise you to take the vehicle to a competent body shop, and have the vehicle inspected for any undisclosed body damage, or repair.

I would also encourage anyone still considering purchasing a vehicle from BMW/MINI of Towson, Md., to consider purchasing from another dealer, as this dealer seems only to be interested in taking your money, and taking no responsibility for defects in the products that they sell.

You said you think the dealer was unaware. Why are you bashing them?

Originally Posted by coffeeman

I have registered the domain name MiniUsaLies.com, to document this incident. If any MINI owner finds that his/her vehicle has undisclosed damage, you are encouraged to submit details of your vehicle to fraud@miniusalies.com.

My attorneys have advised me that if there are other cases of undisclosed damage, these cases may be eligible for certification of class action status.

Your attorneys are dreaming...

Originally Posted by coffeeman

Finally, to address the concerns of those (including myself) who feel that we are too litigious in the United States, I offer the following: I am only interested in receiving compensatory damages, in the form of a re-purchase by MINI USA of this vehicle. Any and all punitive damages that I may be awarded will be donated to charity. My intent is to teach MINI USA, and BMW USA a lesson...a lesson that they should have learned in 1997.

If you are only interested in receiving compensatory damages in the form
of diminished value to your vehicle and you think you have proof or can
substantiate that BMW is in the wrong side of the law, why haven't you
made an effort to contact them directly to resolve this, instead of hiring
attorneys first? It's also contradicting to say that compensatory damages
would be ok with you but further up you said you want BMW to buy back
the vehicle minus reasonable amount for mileage - I assure you the two
are not the same. It's only fair for people to think that you are too litigious,
no?

Originally Posted by coffeeman

As a postscript, I've have been a BMW owner/customer since 1971. For thirty-six years, I have recommended the BMW brand to my friends and business associates. I always thought of BMW as a corporation that was above reproach. I was wrong. From this point, I will tarnish BMW USA's reputation, as well as the selling dealer's reputation, at every available opportunity.

It is my opinion that you need to rethink your course of action because you
haven't been lied to and everything had been done within the limits of the
law. And because it's always possible to resolve this in a very favorable way
to you, out of court.

Phew...I'm done. I hope you all enjoyed your popcorn

Peace

[NaTuReB0Y]

definitely cliff notes.......

[just4kickz]

wow good story man. if only it was bedtime.... i still have 2-3hours of studying to go.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by BMW-NC

Well, so much for my .2...

Your... 20 cents? Sorry...

I think it is your duty to at least ask about the job. If you ask about it and they lie that is one thing but if they just happen not to tell you, possibly because they were not informed of it, that is your own fault. Own up.

I just sold a 2002 Civic (got for 17K) with a replaced and repainted rear bumper for 9K with 85K+ miles. Either you are lying or just being jacked around.

[GTAutoConcepts]

Originally Posted by montreal jet black

sell the car to privately... private buyers look less into details like how the car was painted before... usually private buyers are only concerned if the car has been in an accident...

isn't it illegal to not disclose any information to a buyer? even if you are trying to sell to a praivate party?

[epbrown]

This seems a huge over-reaction, imo - BMW Towson seemed on their way to resolving the issue with the OP before he decided to make a federal case out of it. Did they just flat-out refuse to take the car back?

My other misgiving with this tale is the CarMax appraisal. I've no doubt they offered $18k for the car - they're famous for low-balling sellers. Was no 2nd opinion sought on the car's value? What do NADA and KBB list for it's value?

[homeslice]

Originally Posted by SJNESH

do you think others manufacturers dont do the same thing?

Its funny when bmw owners say "its not like any other company out there....ITS BMW, your driving the dream"

but

when something isnt right with a BMW they usually say "do you think others manufacturers dont do the same thing?"

[Wai328]

[4runner]

Thank you for you posted this info. I'm going to order a CooperS tomorrow and will make sure to check it out before the delivery. There is only two dealer in DC area. I'm going to the one in Reston, VA.

[OC Guy]

[Robert]

Thank you for the informative and well written post. Initially, I was suspicious of your intentions but after reading that you would donate the punitive award to charity I am much relieved and I hope you would keep your promise.

To those who wants a Cliff, the post is worth the read.

"Any and all punitive damages that I may be awarded will be donated to charity. My intent is to teach MINI USA, and BMW USA a lesson...a lesson that they should have learned in 1997."