F1 2024: Italian GP - Monza (Sep 1)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Davil

Told you yesterday Oscar would take him at the start. I’ve always thought he has a touch of Niki Lauda about him, even slightly looks like him and has that dead pan response. The way he has zero celebration with a podium place that isn’t 1st. Lando can drive the fastest lap but Oscar is the racer. He’s still super young too. Definitely a guy to watch.

Great race. Can’t believe Ferrari won on strategy. Well, not them really it was Charles. Superb job. He’d had the tyres on long enough to know they go off but come back just enough.

What a great season.

NOR was saying that if he had braked a metre later at the start then both he and PIA would have crashed so overall I'd say Lando is the sensible daddy here for the long run.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by RichardInCA

Yup Oscar is doing precisely what a hungry, talented, up & coming racer should do.

He went hard but you still have to be clever, in reality the overtake was for me a little over for two team mates. If they had been going 1-2 I think they could have finished that way, they also pushed very hard, probably too hard thus the tyres couldn't keep up.

Split strategy, not allowing Leclerc to pass one of them and more, and they did touch so that's not a great way to race. Also whilst Piastri wants to race the team if they want to win the drivers and constructors need to put one of them first, really that should be Norris.

Keep Piastri as a blocker and leave Lando to manage the pace and it could have been a very different race and conclusion, likely even with a 2 stop strategy. All if, buts and maybe's but McLaren just aren't being ruthless enough at all, they are almost shocked to be at the front and aren't taking advantage of the current pace.

Red Bull / Mercedes / Ferrari could be one tweak away from getting pace up to their level so they need to make hay whilst the sun shines and to be frank they haven't as much as they should for me.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by RichardInCA

Been chewing this over since the race this morning. Lando did get off the line pretty well so honestly didn’t screw up his launch this time and got to the crucial turn 1 in the lead. His real error was not anticipating Oscar making such a ballsy move on just a few turns later. He clearly got caught out by that move to such an extent that Charles snuck through and….well that was that for his race. Obviously a lot of if’s and buts that followed, but that turn 4 overtake was the whole race I think.

Rewind the clock a couple of rounds. Lando ultimately acceded to his team-driven “hand the W to Oscar” move in Hungary, bargaining over the radio for some time before decided to do “the team thing” and follow orders. The question if I’m Lando is “when is the pay-back coming?”. “This is not the way to win a world championship” was the pressure from the team radio, but what if Lando grabbing Hungary from Oscar was actually the way to win the championship. Hmmmm.

It seems that McLaren is really fumbling this but leaving things as ambiguous as possible while saying “OK boys, just don’t crash” and calling it papaya-rules (cringe). Lando seemingly is expecting Oscar to play nice, but then after his corner 1 move, nearly taking out George, it’s pretty clear to the outside observer that playing nice was not on Oscar’s mind today. He could have played a defensive #2 drive like Sainz did for Ferrari, kept LeClerc at bay, and maybe McLaren get the P1/2 finish they wanted. At the same time, Oscar is receiving a clear signal “hey, it’s all fair to go for it if you don’t crash him out” which is all he needed to decide that today was his day to stamp his mark on things.

All in all, I’m pushing this situation more on McLaren leadership now than Lando, but Lando has shown naivety this weekend that will sting and possibly put him on the back foot in what’s shaping up to be another classic F1 psychological team-mate battle. This post race interview with them is a great example; when asked about whether McLaren should institute team orders to favor Lando - Lando blathers on for a ridiculous/embarrassing amount of time, while Oscar has no comment.

https://www.threads.net/@fray_f1/pos...yltSuyK6daEG3w

If Zak Brown is trying to see which driver wins out, he’s handed the momentum to Oscar this weekend, and Oscar gratefully and skillfully took advantage of that - as a good racer should. This is going to be a popcorn-worthy second half of the season.

For sure Stella and Brown permanently listen to what their engineers and mechanics tell them about who's got the best total package according to them (relevant feedback about set-up, race performance, race pace and sheer race intelligence).

Piastri is a wolf in sheep's clothes (ex Alpine boss Otmar Szafnauer found it out the hard way in Summer 2022 after messing with Piastri and his manager Mark Webber), with the calculated mindset of a fighter pilot: he remains composed and clinical in his radio messages, going for the kill. Norris, on the other hand, when things get more challenging, tends to lose his temper all too easily and happens to make impetuous mistakes. Unlike Piastri, Norris can be rattled, can lose focus.

If the McLaren team confided to Stella and Brown that they consider Piastri the better driver, then they're not gonna "Bottas" him. But as Norris ain't no slouch either, they're not gonna "Bottas" Norris either. Let them race, let them show that they're worth their salt. Mercedes did that in 2016 and it ended in tears in Barcelona with the infamous Hamilton-Rosberg crash -Mercedes went for 'master & servant" from 2017 till 2021 with Hamilton and Bottas. Given the Mercedes rocket, Bottas could have won more races, but was held on a tight leash by Mercedes (with successive 1-year contracts to keep him in check), allowing Hamilton to easily accumulate race wins during that era.

Originally Posted by Davil

Great race. Can’t believe Ferrari won on strategy. Well, not them really it was Charles. Superb job. He’d had the tyres on long enough to know they go off but come back just enough.

About the Ferrari strategy facilitating Leclerc the Monza race victory. Post-race, Piastri accurately coined that "everyone's a legend on Monday" (hindsight analysis from a comfy armchair). That was sound - same goes for his advice during the race to pit for new tires.

If Leclerc had blown his totally worn out front left tire during the final laps of the race on the bloody hot Monza track surface, the press and forums would have been ruthless about yet another surreal Ferrari strategy 'evidently' ruining Leclerc's race. On the F1 tire longevity roulette, Ferrari went all-in, trusted what Pirelli had said in advance and were very-very lucky that the F1 race gods were indulgent on the holy Italian grounds: the high-stakes gamble worked. Recently, also Russell pulled off a similar feat at Spa-Francorchamps (but, as we all know, in the end he got DSQ'd because of 1.5kg missing for the 798 kg minimum weight, unfortunately).

If it works, you're glorious, if it fails, you're the laughing stock. Several examples exist of ambitious long stints ending with a blown tire, tears and frustration. But kudos to Ferrari and Leclerc for doing the high-risk gamble, galvanised by the fans going nuts - nice entertainment and lots of emotions. A deserved race win thanks to a bold team strategy, Leclerc's racecraft and the luck that the left front Pirelli tire survived the grueling ordeal.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

It's not the rear wing . The whole RB20 just s@cks .
The RB20 has a fundamental design flaw...

Yeah . As I said , Checo crashed a $4.5Million hole in the Red Bull budget cap.
But they won't fix the RB20 with the $4.5Million , because upgrades work like downgrades ..
That's why all the upgrades have been removed because the car ran like a stupid donkey (!)
A complete new Red Bull car is required , but that is planned for the 2025 season.
In other words : The 5H1T is real at this moment...

Even so there are things that RB want looking into to look at 5#it from other things. Waiting for Ben S to act on Fia's rules.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Artemis

If the McLaren team confided to Stella and Brown that they consider Piastri the better driver, then they're not gonna "Bottas" him. But as Norris ain't no slouch either, they're not gonna "Bottas" Norris either. Let them race, let them show that they're worth their salt. Mercedes did that in 2016 and it ended in tears in Barcelona with the infamous Hamilton-Rosberg crash -Mercedes went for 'master & servant" from 2017 till 2021 with Hamilton and Bottas.

This is all true (I like the evaluation of your entire post), but now the WDC is up for grasps. Let them race makes for very nice racing (and up til now Brown keeps his word to that, admirably), but McLaren could loose the WDC because of this. And imo the WDC is the big prize. Next year, things can all be completely different. Both RB and Merc can find things that give them the better car, rules can change...a lot can happen and it then could easily take another decade for McLaren to be in another position for a potential realistic WDC.
Rosberg and Hamilton were allowed to race because realistically there wasn't another driver in the wdc race that year.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is all true (I like the evaluation of your entire post), but now the WDC is up for grasps. Let them race makes for very nice racing (and up til now Brown keeps his word to that, admirably), but McLaren could loose the WDC because of this. And imo the WDC is the big prize. Next year, things can all be completely different. Both RB and Merc can find things that give them the better car, rules can change...a lot can happen and it then could easily take another decade for McLaren to be in another position for a potential realistic WDC.
Rosberg and Hamilton were allowed to race because realistically there wasn't another driver in the wdc race that year.

In the Verstappen-Perez and Norris-Piastri combos, Perez is the weakest link. If Ferrari were leading the WCC like Red Bull Racing does right now, McLaren's challenge to get the 2024 WCC would be to no avail. If Red Bull Racing wants to secure getting the 2024 WCC, Perez must urgently get his act together. Otherwise McLaren will get that trophy (and the dozens of millions of prize money) at the 2024 FIA Prize-Giving Gala in Kigali (Rwanda) this December.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the Verstappen-Perez and Norris-Piastri combos, Perez is the weakest link. If Ferrari were leading the WCC like Red Bull Racing does right now, McLaren's challenge to get the 2024 WCC would be to no avail. If Red Bull Racing wants to secure getting the 2024 WCC, Perez must urgently get his act together. Otherwise McLaren will get that trophy (and the dozens of millions of prize money) at the 2024 FIA Prize-Giving Gala in Kigali (Rwanda) this December.

He won Baku last time out so every chance to redeem himself here to stop the rot but it's a tall order with the situation of the current RB 20.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Artemis

messing with Piastri and his manager Mark Webber

I'm pretty sure Webber drilled Piastri to never ever consolidate in a 2nd driver role in a team. That's Webber's biggest regret/nightmare from his Vettel/RB era...

So I wonder what Piastri will do if team orders are given and his gap to NOR is less than now (say 25 points or so....)

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I'm pretty sure Webber drilled Piastri to never ever consolidate in a 2nd driver role in a team. That's Webber's biggest regret/nightmare from his Vettel/RB era...

So I wonder what Piastri will do if team orders are given and his gap to NOR is less than now (say 25 points or so....)

100%

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

He went hard but you still have to be clever, in reality the overtake was for me a little over for two team mates. If they had been going 1-2 I think they could have finished that way, they also pushed very hard, probably too hard thus the tyres couldn't keep up.

Split strategy, not allowing Leclerc to pass one of them and more, and they did touch so that's not a great way to race. Also whilst Piastri wants to race the team if they want to win the drivers and constructors need to put one of them first, really that should be Norris.

Keep Piastri as a blocker and leave Lando to manage the pace and it could have been a very different race and conclusion, likely even with a 2 stop strategy. All if, buts and maybe's but McLaren just aren't being ruthless enough at all, they are almost shocked to be at the front and aren't taking advantage of the current pace.

Red Bull / Mercedes / Ferrari could be one tweak away from getting pace up to their level so they need to make hay whilst the sun shines and to be frank they haven't as much as they should for me.

I agree; Oscar took full advantage of the ambiguity created by papaya rules. I guess that ZB/AS realize they’ve got two potential future WDC candidates on their hands and want to get a better feel for who’s really got the edge, but that might just come at the expense of WDC 2024 if McLaren leadership take a firmer grasp of the wheel.

[M5Rick]

Here are the important bits from the GP.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I’m starting to like PIA. Pretty ruthless and doesn’t back down.

I like NOR and PIA too , but It's the McLaren strategy that really s@cks .

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

It's Zakary Brown saying they can drive without team orders, very surprised from the American at that and PIA needs no more than that.

Brown is an idiot my friend

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Even so there are things that RB want looking into to look at 5#it from other things. Waiting for Ben S to act on Fia's rules.

Norris won Zandvoort with the latest McLaren upgrades .
And Piastri just got the the latest upgrades at Monza .

As I said , and that's what we have seen from Piastri at Monza .
In other words : Piastri was suddenly faster, because he got the upgrades too

One thing is for sure , the Papaya car is a bullet (!)
Too bad for the others teams , because they don't know why.....

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Given the Mercedes rocket, Bottas could have won more races, but was held on a tight leash by Mercedes (with successive 1-year contracts to keep him in check), allowing Hamilton to easily accumulate race wins during that era.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Rosberg and Hamilton were allowed to race because realistically there wasn't another driver in the wdc race that year.

Not much different than Red Bull, Verstappen, Pérez, and the 2021 and the 2022 era. Wait. Vettel, Webber, 2010-2012 too. And the Schumacher era too. Weird that there’s often someone easily accumulating wins with a rocket car, a compliant teammate, no competition, and favourable team orders. This Formula One thing is crazy talk. Innit ?

[3798j]

How did Jos so accurately predict the fall of RedBull Racing?...and one wonders how many times he's told Max..."I told you so."

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the Verstappen-Perez and Norris-Piastri combos, Perez is the weakest link. If Ferrari were leading the WCC like Red Bull Racing does right now, McLaren's challenge to get the 2024 WCC would be to no avail. If Red Bull Racing wants to secure getting the 2024 WCC, Perez must urgently get his act together. Otherwise McLaren will get that trophy (and the dozens of millions of prize money) at the 2024 FIA Prize-Giving Gala in Kigali (Rwanda) this December.

It's just Red Bull own stupid mistake to keep the Mexican in that seat .

McLaren can't lose the WCC , because Red Bull has only one driver to score the points .
The only thing the Mexican has done is crashing a $4.5Million deep hole in the Red Bull budget cap .
And that's your teammate , while you're leading in the WDC . Imagine (!)

But the Mexican government kept the Mexican with Millions of KitKats in that Red Bull seat .
Politics are very nasty disease in motorsports !

If McLaren wins the WCC , then they really deserve it !
And they will win it for sure ...

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

the Papaya car is a bullet (!)

Where is the Max Factor )?(

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Where is the Max Factor )?(

In a car that is driving backwards .

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Brown is an idiot my friend

But.. he's inadvertently helping MAX
I'm happy and so should you be my friend.

[CMW33]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

He won Baku last time out so every chance to redeem himself here to stop the rot but it's a tall order with the situation of the current RB 20.

If you're Red Bull, do you just give up on the RB20 now and focus on either a new concept or trying to address the 20's issues for next year's RB21? I kinda think you do. Max has a big enough lead that he will still coast to the Drivers' Championship but the Constructors' is lost at this point. Or does giving up on 2024 send the wrong message to Max and the team?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

But.. he's inadvertently helping MAX
I'm happy and so should you be my friend.

Yeah . Some idiots can be very useful and helpful.

Lando is thinking WTF is going on ?!?!