Navy thread

[Boomer 2019]

Wizzo is the affectionate term for a Navy Weapons Systems Officer. AKA Back Seater, and Baggage. This person rides in the rear seat of 2 seat Navy fighter aircraft, and is responsible for weapons deployment and communications. Think "Goose". The term has been around since the early 1960's.

[Boomer 2019]

Originally Posted by Llarry

An Aussie!

(I think your son is an EWO, not an WSO; does he call himself a Wizzo?)

They'ii let anybody fly those things.

[Boomer 2019]

Originally Posted by Llarry

I'm puzzled by this photo. I was aware that CVN 80, the future USS Enterprise, was in the water, but Wikipedia says she is not to commission until 2028. Perhaps this is a photo of the lead ship of the class; I don't see an "80" anywhere.

This can only be the Gerald R. Ford CV 78. It is the only operable member of the Ford Class carriers. The John F. Kennedy CV 79 is currently afloat but far from complete. It will be at least another year before she advances from the status of PCU (Pre Commissioning Unit) aka under construction, to a fully Commissioned Naval Vessel (in active service). She is currently moored at the south end of Huntington Ingalls Shipyard in Newport News right next to Enterprise CV 65 which is being dismantled for scrap. This breaks my heart. I served aboard her, and she will always be my boat.

The Enterprise CV 80 is under construction in the main drydock at the north end of the shipyard. Currently there is a drydock full of disconnected units that don't much resemble an aircraft carrier. It will be at least another 3 years before she can float and achieve PCU status. Official Commissioning is scheduled for 2028 but no one is making book on that.

The USS Doris Miller CV 81 will be next up, and HI has been cutting steel for her for over 2 years now. This will be stored somewhere until Enterprise CV 80 clears the drydock.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by Boomer 2019

This can only be the Gerald R. Ford CV 78...

Just like the Air Force brat, our friend Lady Jane, mentioned yesterday.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Boomer 2019

This can only be the Gerald R. Ford CV 78. It is the only operable member of the Ford Class carriers. The John F. Kennedy CV 79 is currently afloat but far from complete. It will be at least another year before she advances from the status of PCU (Pre Commissioning Unit) aka under construction, to a fully Commissioned Naval Vessel (in active service). She is currently moored at the south end of Huntington Ingalls Shipyard in Newport News right next to Enterprise CV 65 which is being dismantled for scrap. This breaks my heart. I served aboard her, and she will always be my boat.

The Enterprise CV 80 is under construction in the main drydock at the north end of the shipyard. Currently there is a drydock full of disconnected units that don't much resemble an aircraft carrier. It will be at least another 3 years before she can float and achieve PCU status. Official Commissioning is scheduled for 2028 but no one is making book on that.

The USS Doris Miller CV 81 will be next up, and HI has been cutting steel for her for over 2 years now. This will be stored somewhere until Enterprise CV 80 clears the drydock.

Yes, as I responded to Lady Jane, I had a brain fart on that photo; the Enterprise is still in dry dock being put together with the Kennedy in the water undergoing construction.

The largest carrier that I've seen was the Constellation. I suppose in overall dimensions (length overall, beam, extreme width, freeboard) there isn't that much difference with the Ford class; the latter has a somewhat fuller hull form and of course one less elevator and the island moved way aft. Would love to see one of the Fords. I'm pretty sure they can't make it up the Willamette River, though.

[Boomer 2019]

No, but the Nimitz is currently up in Bremerton for work, and I am sure that you could get a tour of her.

[Llarry]

The "death ray" is here and operational!

Well, OK, actually it's an optical dazzler meant to destroy UAV (drone) sensors. But it is being installed on U.S. Navy destroyers just forward of the bridge.

Technically, the designation is the SEQ-4 ODIN. Here are a couple of photos.

[Llarry]

Acoustic homing torpedoes have become common in antisubmarine warfare conducted by fixed wing aircraft and helicopters as well as surface combatants. The first U.S. air-dropped homing torpedo was developed in 1942 and first used operationally in 1943 to attack German U-boats.

The project was very hush-hush and the weapon was designated the Mark 24 mine to disguise its purpose. It was carried by carrier-based Avenger torpedo bombers and land-based patrol aircraft such as the B-24 (or PB4Y) Liberator. U.S., UK and Canadian forces used the weapon. It was popularly dubbed "FIDO" by the crews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_mine

FIDO could also be launched from a surface ship (see 2nd photo) and was later adapted in slightly enlarged form after WW2 as the Mark 27 "Cutie" submarine-launched homing torpedo.

I do not know the details of the programming for the FIDO, but current ASW homing torpedoes conduct a circular search pattern after entering the water until they detect a target. Importantly, the torpedo can be programmed not to home on a surface target, avoiding an attack on the launching surface combatant.

Per Wikipedia, the Mark 24 was pretty successful against the U-boat threat, although the small size of the warhead meant that the weapon sometimes damaged but did not sink the enemy submarine.

[formerE36M3/4/5]

Only recently joined Bimmerpost as I put a G05 x5 x40i on order (will be one of the last ‘24’s built).

I was USN (enlisted) from Dec ‘77 - Dec ‘83, rating was FTM (missile fire control technician) back when they differentiated between missile’s and guns. Other than my time in boot and school my entire enlistment was stationed on board ship which is what I went in for, I loved being on the ocean.

Both of my ships were the old oil fired boiler vessels even though the gas turbine ships had been out for a bit. First was DDG-8 the USS Lynde McCormick and the 2nd was the USS Brooke FFG-1. That ship was anything but fast….. kept steaming only by the hard work of our snipes! 3 WestPac deployments during my 6 years.

Only significant events my ships were involved in was floating around the Indian Ocean during the Iran Hostage Crisis and looking for “survivors ” after the Russians shot down KAL007. Most of the rest of my time was typical Tin Can Navy ops.

I was older than most of my contemporaries on board ship so I knew why I was there and what I would have been doing if I hadn’t joined so I appreciated it more but was glad when I got out (BS like painting the entire pier side of the ship just because an admiral was going to be driving by to visit another ship on our pier didn’t sit well with me). Otherwise my time was a hugely beneficial experience for me.

Anyhow, happy to read and share our various experiences in Uncle Sam’s Canoe Club.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by formerE36M3/4/5

Anyhow, happy to read and share our various experiences in Uncle Sam’s Canoe Club.

[Llarry]

The current lightweight (500-800 pounds) ASW torpedoes are greatly improved over the old WW2 FIDO. The FIDO had a max speed of 12 knots for 10 minutes; this in an era when the underwater speed of a submarine was typically less than 10 knots. Modern submarines have underwater speeds of 20 knots or more, with the nukes doing 30+ knots. A homing torpedo had better have a good turn of speed.

The USN currently uses three different lightweight ASW torpedoes -- all have a diameter of 12.75 inches (324 mm): The oldest is the Mark 46. The Mark 46 became operational in the early 1960s and in the U.S. Navy is fired from triple torpedo tubes on surface combatants and air-dropped by parachute from helicopters or patrol planes. It is credited with a speed of 40 or more knots and has a range of 11 km.

The Mark 46 was not up to the task of killing the most advanced Soviet submarines of the Cold War and the Mark 50 was to be its replacement. Developed in the '90s, the Mark 50 torpedo had good performance and was deeper diving but was deemed too expensive to be bought in quantity. It is in the fleet but in smaller numbers.

The Mark 54 is a hybrid of the Mark 50 guidance section with the propulsion system of the older Mark 46 and is in wide use, replacing the Mark 46.

These U.S. torpedoes are also used by many allies. There are also similar torpedoes produced by the UK (Sting Ray) and France and Italy (Mu90).

The latest innovation in ASW torpedo delivery is the dropping of a torpedo from a Boeing P-8A from higher altitude as a winged glider.

[Llarry]

Vintage recruiting poster -- the message was certainly true for me.

[Llarry]

The U.S. Navy has six Expeditionary Sea Bases (ESBs) active or under construction. These are large ships built on modified oil tanker hulls that can be used for various purposes -- largely as support facilities for airborne minesweeping helicopters, special forces, etc., and at any locations where facilities are scarce.

The ESBs have an unusual crewing concept: They have mixed military and civilian crews. The CO is a Navy officer, but the bridge and the engine room are largely operated by civilian mariners, who are U.S. government civil service employees. The crew is about 100 uniformed Navy personnel and 40 civilian mariners. Additional sailors or Marines can be accommodated.

The flight deck takes up to four helicopters, including large MH-53E mine countermeasures helos, and includes a sizeable hangar. Below the flight deck is storage for boats and equipment, along with cranes to lift gear into and out of the sea. The ships are lightly armed with machine guns.

In the first photo, the ship is marked as a civilian-manned Military Sealift Command ship (see the exhaust stack stripes) but the ships are now all active Navy ships.

So far four ESBs have been commissioned -- the fourth just this month. One is homeported in Bahrain, one in Souda Bay, Crete and one in Saipan in the Mariana Islands. I'm not sure where the other three will be based.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Le...Puller_(ESB-3))

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Vintage recruiting poster -- the message was certainly true for me.

They don't tell you the world is 75% water! I did get to see a LOT of it!

My favorite quote to the newbies on the ship that thought they were "all that;" I've flushed more sea water than you've sailed over.

[EezyBeezy]

Interesting..been always passing by a ESB these past couple days that's been docked on NAS North Island and never knew what is was, now I know.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The U.S. Navy has six Expeditionary Sea Bases (ESBs) active or under construction. These are large ships built on modified oil tanker hulls that can be used for various purposes -- largely as support facilities for airborne minesweeping helicopters, special forces, etc., and at any locations where facilities are scarce.

The ESBs have an unusual crewing concept: They have mixed military and civilian crews. The CO is a Navy officer, but the bridge and the engine room are largely operated by civilian mariners, who are U.S. government civil service employees. Sources differ as to the number of crewmembers: The official Navy web site says they have a crew of 250, while one article says they have about 100 Navy personnel and 40 civilian mariners.

The flight deck takes up to four helicopters, including large MH-53E mine countermeasures helos, and includes a sizeable hangar. Below the flight deck is storage for boats and equipment, along with cranes to lift gear into and out of the sea. The ships are lightly armed with machine guns.

In the first photo, the ship is marked as a civilian-manned Military Sealift Command ship (see the exhuast stack stripes) but the ships are now all active Navy ships.

So far four ESBs have been commissioned -- the fourth just this month. One is homeported in Bahrain, one in Souda Bay, Crete and one in Saipan in the Mariana Islands. I'm not sure where the other three will be based.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Le...Puller_(ESB-3))

Where's the rust??

[Llarry]

I was unsure whether to post this in the airplane thread or here but decided to post it here.

The size of the U.S. armed forces in 1945 was incredible. In virtually every category -- tanks, artillery, heavy bombers, fighters, machine guns -- the amounts on hand were staggering. But once the war in Europe was over, this vast war machine still had a daunting task ahead: the defeat of Japan. And the experience in the Pacific war showed that the invasion of Japan would be a very tough fight indeed. The existence of the atomic bomb was known by very few and its impact on the outcome of the war was still unknown.

My own particular interest is U.S. naval aviation and I have a pretty good idea of what was going on in that area in 1945. The American industrial behemoth was in high gear and that included aircraft carriers and their aircraft. Here are some numbers for July 1945:

Ships:

Large aircraft carriers (CVB): None yet in commission + 3 building

Fleet aircraft carriers (CV): 18 in commission + 5 building
(excluding older 2 training CVs)

Small aircraft carriers (CVL): 8 in commission + 2 building

Escort aircraft carriers (CVE): 34 in commission + 7 building
(excluding 38 transport/training CVEs)


Air Groups & Aircraft:

Large carrier air groups (CVBG): 2 with 270 aircraft
(2 more in the process of forming)

Fleet carrier air groups (CVG): 36 with 3,600 aircraft
(10 more in the process of forming)

Night carrier air groups (CVGN): 5 with 275 aircraft
(1 more in the process of forming)

Escort carrier air groups (CVEG): 11 with 385 aircraft
(1 more in the process of forming)

Night escort carrier air groups (CVEGN): 4 with 95 aircraft
(4 more in the process of forming)

Older escort carrier composite squadrons (VC): 42 with 1,540 aircraft
(With the war against the U-boats in the Atlantic just ended, this category would likely have been reduced.)

In 1945, the Marine Corps was organizing 30 Marine carrier air groups as well; these would have had about 1,050 aircraft.

The attached photo shows 5 Essex-class CVs at anchor in Ulithi Lagoon; had the war not ended, there would have been perhaps 5 such task groups pummeling the Japanese home islands. And there would have been no rest at night, either; the night air groups would have ringed Japan and turned the war into a 24-hour hell for the populace. Fortunately, it did not come to that, although the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki still elicit controversy today. My personal view is that from the vantage point of 1945, the bombs saved many lives on both sides. But of course, they also let the nuclear genie out of the bottle.

[Llarry]

The carrier aircraft numbers in the last post total 7,565 carrier fighters, dive bombers and torpedo bombers. Only about half of the aircraft were in combat at any given time, while the others were resting after combat tours, training and getting ready to go.

Contrast that with the U.S. Navy carrier force of 2024: 9 aircraft carriers/carrier air wings with just under 400 strike fighters. Of course, that is really an apples and oranges comparison -- the ships and aircraft of today are much, much more capable and have precision weapons. Interesting nonetheless.

[Llarry]

In a sign of the times, the U.S. Navy has established a new enlisted rating (specialty): RW - Robotics Warfare Specialist.

[Llarry]

There are three attacks on the U.S. Navy that have stuck in the craw of many in the Navy for many years. Although these attacks all took place in the 1960s, we never forget.

-- The USS Liberty (AGTR 5) was a WW2 merchant ship that had been converted -- along with several sisters -- to a "technical research ship" (SIGINT collection ship). A ship that might cruise in international waters off the coast of a troubled area to monitor the situation. On June 8, 1967, that was what Liberty was doing when attacked repeatedly by Israeli air and naval forces. 34 Americans died in the attack and 171 were wounded. The attached before and after photos speak for themselves. Israel claimed that the attack was a case of mistaken identity, apologized and provided compensation to the U.S. Many in the Navy SIGINT community believe the attack was deliberate. More details can be found in the Wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

-- Along with the larger AGTRs, several small cargo ships were converted to "Environmental Research Ships" with a similar mission. One of these was the USS Pueblo (AGER 2) which was loitering in international waters off the North Korean coast on January 23, 1969, when attacked by North Korean forces and captured. One crewman was killed and 82 were captured and held for a year, during which they were tortured.

The USS Pueblo remains in commission as a U.S. Navy ship and should be returned. North Korea maintains it as a museum -- see photo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

-- The third late 1960s Cold War attack was the shootdown by North Korean fighters of a U.S. Navy fleet air reconnaissance aircraft. On April 15, 1969, an EC-121M of Navy squadron VQ-1 based in Atsugi, Japan, was conducted a routine mission 90 miles off the coast of North Korea when it was shot down by North Korean MiG-21s, killing all 31 crewmembers onboard. Again, further details can be found in the Wikipedia article. I think it is possible that the shootdown was meant as a birthday gift for North Korean dictator Kim Il-sung.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_E...tdown_incident

[Llarry]

The U.S. intelligence collection ship program took into account international law and norms of international behavior. For many years, the Soviet Union and then Russia conducted intelligence collection near U.S. installations and fleet operations. China has done the same in recent years. As long as those ships remain in international waters, the U.S. takes no action. To our disadvantage, we expected the same of Israel and North Korea.

After the late 1960s attacks, lightly-armed AGTRs and AGERs were removed from service. From then on, intelligence collection was conducted by armed combatants with temporary ship installations of collection equipment.

In the 1980s, the U.S. took one more try at a specialized intelligence collection ship. The USS Sphinx (ARL 24) was a World War II tank landing ship (LST) that had been converted to a repair ship for landing craft. In the 1980s, the Sphinx was dusted off and given a SIGINT equipment installation and used for collection of Latin American intelligence. (This was the era of the Nicaraguan Marxist government.) The ship kept its repair designation and was decommissioned in 1989.

[Boomer 2019]

Originally Posted by Llarry

There are three attacks on the U.S. Navy that have stuck in the craw of many in the Navy for many years. Although these attacks all took place in the 1960s, we [B]never forget. [/

-- The third late 1960s Cold War attack was the shootdown by North Korean fighters of a U.S. Navy fleet air reconnaissance aircraft. On April 15, 1969, an EC-121M of Navy squadron VQ-1 based in Atsugi, Japan, was conducted a routine mission 90 miles off the coast of North Korea when it was shot down by North Korean MiG-21s, killing all 31 crewmembers onboard. Again, further details can be found in the Wikipedia article. I think it is possible that the shootdown was meant as a birthday gift for North Korean dictator Kim Il-sung.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_E...tdown_incident

One lovely day aboard the USS Enterprise in the Tonkin Gulf we got the word that all flight ops would be secured after the recovery of the current mission. This was definitely out of the ordinary, and we all knew that something was up. We closed in with our carrier group and started steaming north at speed. The next day all flight deck personnel were issued heavy foul weather jackets. WTF? A couple of days later it started to get really cold and the Captain put out the word about our mission, explaining about the EC-121 and North Korea. He said we were entering the Yellow Sea and would be standing by for further orders from the President himself. WTF? Later that day all personnel involved in the handling of Special Weapons (Nukes) were called to personal interviews to ascertain our mindset about actually using nuclear weapons against an enemy, and to ascertain if each of us could be trusted to do our jobs. I passed the interview. We continued to wallow around in the Yellow Sea.

Several days later I was issued 4 Special Weapons control boxes to install in the cockpits of 4 of our squadron (VA 215) aircraft. Four of our sister squadron (VA 146) aircraft were also readied. These aircraft had already been thoroughly checked over and fueled, and were deemed ready to go. They were towed to a separate location on the flight deck where they were cordoned off and guarded 24 hours a day by armed marines. The only people authorized to enter this area were myself and another senior AO from VA 146. We performed the installations and the systems checks. Later that day we were told that we would be loading Live Special Weapons on these aircraft in one hour. I gathered my loading team (4 others and myself), went up to the flight deck and found 8 weapons on carriages, and a lot more Marines and Officers waiting for us. Each of us had to be identified and issued a specific vest to wear. No one but the loading crews were allowed to enter the cordoned area, or go anywhere near the weapons. Each weapon was marked and assigned to a specific aircraft. The reason for this was that these specific weapons (BU 57) were capable of delivering different yields depending on the specific mission. This was done by turning a dial within the weapon. AKA dial a death. We loaded the weapons and cleared the area.

The next morning we were told the launch was on. Pilots manned their aircraft. Later we learned that their targets were in both North Korea and China. Engines were started, and aircraft taxied forward to the catapults. They could not take off without a direct order from the President (Nixon). About 20 minutes later the word came to stand down, the launch was canceled. We all owe Tricky Dick a big debt of gratitude.

The aircraft remained loaded and cordoned off under the tender care of the Marines for the next 2 weeks until we were sent back to the Tonkin Gulf to resume kicking NVA ass. That's how close we have come to Armageddon many times over the years. Thank God that cooler heads have prevailed. Believe me, with each crisis of this sort there has been Political and Military leaders who have lobbied loud and strong to drop the Big One. Ever see Doctor Strangelove? Yeah, it's a movie, and it's funny, but there is a lot of uncomfortable truth in it.