Does anyone watch M539 Restorations?

[Jbrown7403]

God….I could listen to that glorious E60 for hours. The last ~ 7 minutes is pure auditory joy!

[Tambohamilton]

I had to have a little laugh at that; Sreten's excitement at the E60 making the correct amount of power and being 'original' and having done 150k miles... Is it really original with replacement vanos pump, new injectors etc etc (I forget all the things he replaced). With all that stuff replaced, what could possibly rob it of power with every conceivable wear item replaced? Is it really fair, on any street car engine, to regard rod bearings as wear items? Grandfather's axe, or trigger's broom, spring to mind. I'm glad he's stoked, but I certainly do remember watching him replace all sorts of parts of that engine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining at all. But that felt really odd to me!

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

I had to have a little laugh at that; Sreten's excitement at the E60 making the correct amount of power and being 'original' and having done 150k miles... Is it really original with replacement vanos pump, new injectors etc etc (I forget all the things he replaced). With all that stuff replaced, what could possibly rob it of power with every conceivable wear item replaced? Is it really fair, on any street car engine, to regard rod bearings as wear items? Grandfather's axe, or trigger's broom, spring to mind. I'm glad he's stoked, but I certainly do remember watching him replace all sorts of parts of that engine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining at all. But that felt really odd to me!

Eh, I think he just means all of the major engine bits are still working well, i.e. motor is still building good compression, cams aren't trashed, valves are still sealing, etc. Don't forget this is a very, VERY high strung V10 in a street car. You hit the nail on the head, if you keep up with the wear items on this engine it's an absolute gem and one of the GOATs.

[Tambohamilton]

It's not highly strung. It makes 100hp/L. I'm not saying it's trash, don't get me wrong. But I don't agree that it should be praised simply for not grenading completely in its 150k miles.

Anyhow, this isn't going anywhere positive. Let's move on

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Mani59

The latest update featuring the E70 X5 and lovely E60 M5 (and a small garage update)

Who wants to guess what's causing the climate control problems with the X5?

Blend doors?
Temp sensor?
Compromised heater core?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

I had to have a little laugh at that; Sreten's excitement at the E60 making the correct amount of power and being 'original' and having done 150k miles... Is it really original with replacement vanos pump, new injectors etc etc (I forget all the things he replaced). With all that stuff replaced, what could possibly rob it of power with every conceivable wear item replaced? Is it really fair, on any street car engine, to regard rod bearings as wear items? Grandfather's axe, or trigger's broom, spring to mind. I'm glad he's stoked, but I certainly do remember watching him replace all sorts of parts of that engine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining at all. But that felt really odd to me!

He's basically speaking to the fact that the engine has maintained compression at 150k miles. Compression has the largest influence on HP. Vanos et all just keep it running as it should.

However, ya rod bearings should not be a maintenance item. Especially when the vehicle cost $120,000 (2023 USD)

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

It's not highly strung. It makes 100hp/L. I'm not saying it's trash, don't get me wrong. But I don't agree that it should be praised simply for not grenading completely in its 150k miles.

Anyhow, this isn't going anywhere positive. Let's move on

That's huge for a NA engine and it makes all that power at 8k rpms. That's what high strung means. Think Honda S2000. Today's turbocharged gassers are more like high performance diesels. Big power at low rpms.

[Tambohamilton]

Honda. Excellent comparison. I rest my case.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Who wants to guess what's causing the climate control problems with the X5?

Blend doors?
Temp sensor?
Compromised heater core?

I don't think it's the heater core, I think it's got something to do with the electronics. Sensor, blend door, etc. I think you're on the right track, but I guess we'll find out

[WrathOTM]

I vote for blend door. They gave in me a ton of shit in my old lexus. Either not letting things work or making loud screechy noises.

[toxik]

i think sreten likes his e60 more than the e39 but doesnt want to admit it.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by toxik

i think sreten likes his e60 more than the e39 but doesnt want to admit it.

Can't blame him, the E60 is the better car of the two...

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by toxik

i think sreten likes his e60 more than the e39 but doesnt want to admit it.

E60 M5 is his mistress. Lol

[Sreten]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

I had to have a little laugh at that; Sreten's excitement at the E60 making the correct amount of power and being 'original' and having done 150k miles... Is it really original with replacement vanos pump, new injectors etc etc (I forget all the things he replaced). With all that stuff replaced, what could possibly rob it of power with every conceivable wear item replaced? Is it really fair, on any street car engine, to regard rod bearings as wear items? Grandfather's axe, or trigger's broom, spring to mind. I'm glad he's stoked, but I certainly do remember watching him replace all sorts of parts of that engine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining at all. But that felt really odd to me!

I meant along the lines of what Chihuahua and F32Fleet said. I did replace a ton of stuff because, IMO, preventive maintenance and proper use of the machine with regular service intervals is the key to its longevity.

If you remember, that same Vanos pump had a broken bearing race and a big chunk of steel was circulating in the engine and it still remained unharmed which is even more impressive.

Internally, besides the Vanos pump and rod bearings, it's all original. Cams, Vanos units, Vanos solenoids, timing chain and guides, head gaskets, valvetrain, pistons... all untouched. It is a highly strung engine with very tight tolerances. 4-door, N/A 5.0 L with 507PS, 8250 rpm redline and a factory 6-speed manual that covered over 150k miles. Can you think of another one? By today standards, 507PS is easily achieved, but keep in mind this thing came out in 2005 with development starting way before that.
Think Lambo V10 or LFA won't need rod bearings at 140k miles? Probably impossible to find one with such mileage and not comparable cars, but E60 M5 is a cheap way to experience a V10 if you were to compare them.

Worn pistons, rings, cylinders, cams, bad timing, bad Vanos.. can rob an engine of power at that mileage. Yes, I agree, rod bearing maintenance on a street car is not normal, but then again this is not a typical street engine. I just took apart the S65 engine (derived from the S85) and you'd be amazed how much racing inspired engineering went into it.
If you were ever to own S85 or S65 engine, you have to come with the term that the rod bearings are simply a maintenance item cause of the tight clearances. That said, I replaced them at 142k miles and they didn't look terrible and probably had more in them, but not something you want to gamble with. I put BE bearings with more clearance, which in theory should solve the rod bearing problem, but I'm yet to confirm that firsthand. I'm planning to remove them at some point and check them for wear.

Anyway, my point is, the E60 M5 is not as bad as internet made it out to be and if someone is on the fence whether they should own one or not, they absolutely should. I'm not saying the maintenance will be easy or cheap cause it won't, but treat it right and it'll treat you right. The S85 is, IMO, a masterpiece of an engine that BMW can't make ever again and should be enjoyed thoroughly. Dunno if you ever drove one, but try it for a bit and you'll be ready to put up with everything, haha. I should add, I'm heavily biased and deeply in love with project Raleigh. 😁

Originally Posted by toxik

i think sreten likes his e60 more than the e39 but doesnt want to admit it.

Yes and yes. I do like it better and I don't like admitting it. 😅 I adore E39 M5, but E60 M5 is arguably a better car with a lot of right updates. To name a couple: steering rack, x100 better seats, x100 better brakes, EDC suspension. Simply put, a proper successor to E39 and I love them both.

[Tambohamilton]

Appreciate your response, Sreten. Please don't misunderstand; I'm really not complaining about anything. If I had the money and time I'd do the equivalent on my car, but I don't. The s85 sure is an awesome engine. But regarding the stress levels, it surely compares with a Honda k20a which had very similar specific power and rev ranges. The k20a has (as far as I'm aware) no issues with longevity unless it's severely mistreated...which is a lot more likely in a civic than an M5, I'd guess.

If I remember rightly, there's an oil blog called 540rat or something. It's a one-page website and very cluttered, but has very interesting data and opinions about oil etc. There's a section about the s65 which you might be interested in reading.

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Sreten

Yes and yes. I do like it better and I don't like admitting it. �� I adore E39 M5, but E60 M5 is arguably a better car with a lot of right updates. To name a couple: steering rack, x100 better seats, x100 better brakes, EDC suspension. Simply put, a proper successor to E39 and I love them both.

Didn't know E60 M5 had EDC suspension as well. Does the EDC need to be reset after replacing the shocks like on the E92 M3? I didn't see that in your videos.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Sreten

Yes and yes. I do like it better and I don't like admitting it. �� I adore E39 M5, but E60 M5 is arguably a better car with a lot of right updates. To name a couple: steering rack, x100 better seats, x100 better brakes, EDC suspension. Simply put, a proper successor to E39 and I love them both.

I think the BMW community, and maybe the car community is FINALLY coming around on the E60 M5. It's not the pariah that everyone makes it out to be. My opinion is that it's the best M5 to date and we will never, ever see BMW put an n/a V10 in a road car again. It's not just the V10 either, the E60 chassis with its hybrid aluminum/steel structure is absolutely awesome and it looks the part too. That car was BMWs moon-shot. I'd love to own one, I had a tough time deciding between that or the B7 I have now. I went with the B7 because I've always wanted to own a real Alpina car, and I've owned a pretty modded E60 530i in the past so I wanted to try something new. Kudos to you for saving the one you have, it's been a great series to watch from start to finish. Looking forward to the M3 videos.

[Sreten]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Appreciate your response, Sreten. Please don't misunderstand; I'm really not complaining about anything. If I had the money and time I'd do the equivalent on my car, but I don't. The s85 sure is an awesome engine. But regarding the stress levels, it surely compares with a Honda k20a which had very similar specific power and rev ranges. The k20a has (as far as I'm aware) no issues with longevity unless it's severely mistreated...which is a lot more likely in a civic than an M5, I'd guess.

If I remember rightly, there's an oil blog called 540rat or something. It's a one-page website and very cluttered, but has very interesting data and opinions about oil etc. There's a section about the s65 which you might be interested in reading.

Anytime! It's nice to chat about this.

Frankly, you can't compare a 4-cyl with a V10. 10 cylinder engine with more than double the power is a totally different animal and far more complex to engineering.
But Honda is more reliable than BMW, no argument there.

S65 has another big issue that S85 doesn't have, main bearings. They don't fail as often as rod bearings, but mains wear badly too and there are already more than enough cases of them falling. It's always the #1 maim bearing that fails, supposedly something with lubrication. This is what happened to project Frankfurt and when they go, the block is trash.

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

Didn't know E60 M5 had EDC suspension as well. Does the EDC need to be reset after replacing the shocks like on the E92 M3? I didn't see that in your videos.

I love EDC. No, I installed Bilstein B6 Damptronic which retains the EDC functionality. Plug & play and the ride is sublime. Should be the same with E92, but I'll find out soon enough.

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

I think the BMW community, and maybe the car community is FINALLY coming around on the E60 M5. It's not the pariah that everyone makes it out to be. My opinion is that it's the best M5 to date and we will never, ever see BMW put an n/a V10 in a road car again. It's not just the V10 either, the E60 chassis with its hybrid aluminum/steel structure is absolutely awesome and it looks the part too. That car was BMWs moon-shot. I'd love to own one, I had a tough time deciding between that or the B7 I have now. I went with the B7 because I've always wanted to own a real Alpina car, and I've owned a pretty modded E60 530i in the past so I wanted to try something new. Kudos to you for saving the one you have, it's been a great series to watch from start to finish. Looking forward to the M3 videos.

I totally agree! When it came out, the design wasn't received well (I personally always loved it), then the rod bearing issues and clunky SMG sealed its reputation. I'm convinced if they only offered it with a 6-speed manual, it'd go down in history as the greatest M car.
The E60 platform is amazing, stuff that you mentioned many don't know about! Not to mention no rust issues unlike E39.
B7 is a luxurious, silent, torque monster and a very special car that should be experienced as well and I get your decision for wanting to try something else.

Thank you! M3 video coming Thursday/Friday.

[Jbrown7403]

Always great to hear from the maestro himself. Sreten, your videos extremely educational and very entertaining! Can’t wait for your Project Frankfurt episodes!

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Sreten

I love EDC. No, I installed Bilstein B6 Damptronic which retains the EDC functionality. Plug & play and the ride is sublime. Should be the same with E92, but I'll find out soon enough.

You may want to consider resetting the EDC. In a scan tool under service/chassis/electronic damping control K, or in ISTA, select "Adjustment, shock absorber" and run it for both axles. The EDC system tracks the car's mileage and make the shocks stiffer over time to compensate for wear, making new shocks feel harsh after replacement. I installed the same B6 damptronics after 70k miles on the chassis and they were skipping and losing traction over small bumps. It was noticeably better after resetting.


From some technical documents on the E65 where I guess this system was introduced:
https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E64/09_E65...20Dynamics.pdf


From Page 20

Tolerance Adaptation
The damper force is diminished as part of the operating time function. Diminishing damper forces are compensated by current (amperage) reductions which are calculated by the tolerance control. This also individually compensates for mechanical damper wear on each axle.

And from page 23

Mechanical wear causes the dampers to weaken over the service life, therefore a running time memory adapts the damper curves towards a harder setting (over time). Faulty dampers must be replaced together (in pairs) on a single axle. After a replacement, the running time memory for the front or rear axle must be reset with the DISplus.

May also apply to your Alpina?

[RocketyMan]

Originally Posted by Sreten

Anytime! It's nice to chat about this.

Thank you! M3 video coming Thursday/Friday.

Yess!!! Can you please make this the most detailed rebuild on the S65? I love your BMW content-style and am eagerly awaiting the video production of project Frankfurt!

[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by Sreten

Anytime! It's nice to chat about this.

Frankly, you can't compare a 4-cyl with a V10. 10 cylinder engine with more than double the power is a totally different animal and far more complex to engineering.
But Honda is more reliable than BMW, no argument there.

S65 has another big issue that S85 doesn't have, main bearings. They don't fail as often as rod bearings, but mains wear badly too and there are already more than enough cases of them falling. It's always the #1 maim bearing that fails, supposedly something with lubrication. This is what happened to project Frankfurt and when they go, the block is trash.

I guess that's my point really; for all the thought and tech that went into the s85, they forgot or failed to make it properly reliable. Honda prove that a 100hp/L high revving engine can be reliable long term, so there's no excuse. BMW's priorities just lay elsewhere I guess, which is a little bit sad. I could happily forgive it for having 2.5x as many oil leaks or something, but consumable internals just never needs to happen any more.

That said, I bet the bearing issues would be solved by a good ~5w-30 oil instead of the factory spec treacle. Remember, more oil pressure isn't better, so long as you have enough!