2020-202x Corvette Stingray

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I know. Thanks god the C8 got rid of the leaf springs. But the upper/lower arm control is the same. Maybe some minor change in geometry but the basic setup is the same.

Yeah those damn unequal length wishbones and how antiquated they truly are. Car makers like Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren and F1 cars still use them, when will they ever learn that westrace knows more then they do. Lol.

Drives like a boat? Wow, yeah having a lower center of gravity, wider track, better suspension and even that laughable leaf spring you can’t get out of your head that solidly out handles many cars including your vaunted M3 and out of your own mouth you say that the C7 with that same transverse leaf still beats many very fast, great handling sports cars of the world. Then you say that they don’t need a mid engine Corvette because they’re fast enough with the current technology yet bemoan them for still using the leaf. You contradict yourself quite often.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by WestRace

Although I appreciate what the C8 is offering for only $60K but I wouldn't be so fast dissing on the 911 owners. To be fair, the 911 and R8 and other supercars either are using unibody frame or outright carbon tub (McLaren) therefore they have an advantage in term of chassis responsiveness because they are inherently stiffer. The Corvette uses effectively an space frame so it may not have the chassis stiffness of the unibody.

In term of engine, I've driven the LT1 before and although it's effective in its output, it's not exactly the most inspiring motor in the world. And being driven 8K rmp red line DOHC engines in the M3, the LT1 6.5K rpm redline is somewhat a frustration. I suspect the LT2 won't be that different from the LT1. And of course being a mid engine car is not going to change that.

Also the Corvette rear suspension uses upper/lower control arm which is more or less a carry-over from the C7 and. I think Porsche 5-link mutilink suspension is probably more effective.

Most supercars now are using active anti-sway bar which would give you a better ride but at the same time has better handling. The Corvette still uses a rather basic, good old anti-sway bar found on a Civic :-)

Also one reason the C8 is fast is because its wheel bass is longer and wider than most but the drawback is if the chassis is not stiff enough, you feel like you're driving a boat. So that is a double edge sword. You can't tell from reading the spec, and only can tell when actually drive the car.

Anyway, like I said before, I need to drive the car to know how it feels like which is something you cannot find on a spreadsheet. No doubt the C8 has incredible value given its performance and cost. But I also have no doubt that the 911, R8, or M4 and definitely Ferrari, McLaren, will still have a richer, more sophisticated feel and driving experience. And that is what the rich people are paying for.

I'll start by saying I own a 911, albeit a 993 so a very different animal than what will be competing with the C8 other than the looks dept. I think the 993 is a damn fine looking car, and so is the C8.

Much of what you said is why the C8 is going to be a giant slayer at $60K USD. Some of the pics of the camo'd C8 were clearly taken at the Ring and GM isn't ab out to release a car like this without doing their do diligence. Are 911's, McLaren, Ferrari et al going to lose sales. Maybe a few guys will jump ship but I think where the Supercars are going to be hurt is on the track. I don't know if they can up their game to justify the price delta on performance alone, there will always be the exclusivity aspect of Supercars and the C8 has effectively taken themselves mainstream with this car at this price point.

I live in a fairly affluent area, and there are a few Ferrari's in town, I see the odd R8, there was a parade of about 20 Lamborgini's that went through town a few weeks back and that always feels special. I have a feeling that we won't be able to swing a dead cat without seeing a C8.

[BMWILUVU]

G80 M3 will need to step up their game. C8 at $60k is atop many's shopping list now. No longer exclusive, it loses its mystique somewhat but they will sell so many it will boggle the mind.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

G80 M3 will need to step up their game. C8 at $60k is atop many's shopping list now. No longer exclusive, it loses its mystique somewhat but they will sell so many it will boggle the mind.

I think you're right. It's almost a shame that a mid-engine stunner is so easily attainable. It makes me wonder what impact that's going to have in the next year or so when they become almost common.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There might be a ten to fifteen minute window where dealer mark ups are still in play that this might hold true. But two or three months in this will have no chance of holding water.

The top three Corvette dealers are all offering MSRP pricing with very reasonable delivery fees if you can’t pick up in person. This includes special orders. Only reason to pay over MSRP is if you didn’t get on the list early and now want one immediately. However that means you’ll be stuck taking whatever the dealer got on the lot while simultaneously paying ADM.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

I think you're right. It's almost a shame that a mid-engine stunner is so easily attainable. It makes me wonder what impact that's going to have in the next year or so when they become almost common.

The thing thats going to be crazy is when the aftermarket companies and 'coach builders' get their hands on this platform.

People have been using corvettes as the platform for their 'exotic' cars for years, now that its mid-engine we are going to see a bunch of new crazy looking mid-engine 'supercars' that are little more then a corvette underneath.

[Ric in RVA]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

When do we think that will be possible?

A friend of mine who writes for various publications expects to get the car in hand late September.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I know. Thanks god the C8 got rid of the leaf springs. But the upper/lower arm control is the same. Maybe some minor change in geometry but the basic setup is the same.

What was wrong with the Corvette FRP leaf spring? There were many advantages to using it? Weight, packaging, durability, to name a few.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

The C7's rear suspension was a composite transleaf spring. Get your facts straight. It goes back all the way to the C5

I believe you're talking about the springs. previous poster was talking about the control arm geometry, which is a double wishbone/a-arm design.

And we can all argue until we're red in the face whether or not the double wishbone design is superior or inferior to your typical multi-link design. Truth is, just like pen*s size, those that have the bigger d*ck will tell you size does matter, those with the smaller d*ck will tell you it's all about how it's used. And the truth lies somewhere in between...For guys like me, who has a car (BMW MZ4 Coupe) that uses a fairly modern multi-link, and one that uses a double wishbone, all I can tell you is that I am big, and I know how to use it.

But to boil it down simply, double wishbone has infinitely more adjustment to camber, toe, and caster, while multi-link has better movement control. Believe it or not, my C7 Grand Sport has a REAR CASTER setting. Rear. Caster. You can fine-tune the mother**k out of the double wishbone setup it's insane. I remember when I first got the C7 Grand Sport aligned at West End Alignment in Torrance, CA, and the technician asked me what I want my rear caster to be set up at, and I was like..."Um...Rear caster? Really?" The double wishbone that came stock/standard on the C7 can be adjusted from 0º to -2.5º camber, up to 1º caster forward or back, and 1/16" toe either way (I believe the toe adjustment really depends on where you have your camber set up at, but whatever). All without the use of any additional hardware or camber plates/arms. With camber arms and plates you can get some insane geometry. On my BMW the rear camber limit is 1.9º.

I can't tell you whether one is better than the other on track, because the two cars are so extremely different when it comes to their idea of how to attack a corner. Wheelbase difference is on the magnitude of almost a foot and the overall length difference and weight difference is YUGE. What I CAN tell you is, a well set-up suspension of either kind is hard to beat, and from a street use and comfort perspective, neither really has an advantage over the other.

[shiv.nandak]

Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle

Game f*cking changer.

Under 3sec 0-60.

Starts under $60k


WOW!

Not to mention, it also has a standard dry sump, DCT, removable roof, front lift, NA V8, soft close trunk, a frunk and is able to fit the entire C7 (previous gen corvette) luggage set.

I remember a BMW executive telling us that the DCT was at the limit of the max power it could handle. Well Chevy just decided to design and build a brand new transmission to handle the power.

[The HACK]

I'm going to do my best to offer you all my typical long winded, but somewhat honest perspective on things because, well, I own both a BMW and a Corvette right now.

First, before we all get TOO excited that the C8 is going to offer supercar like performance for 1/3rd the price...Guys, that's been the Chevrolet Corvette formula for decades. Is this really a game changer? Yes, no and maybe.

Yes the rear wheel drive, mid engine platform is really THAT good, and to be able to offer THE cheapest mid engine car on market outside o Alfa Romeo's 4C, that is something else no other manufacturer can lay a claim to. It's unique, it looks fantastic, and it's surely going to get Corvette out of its death spiral of ever aging demographics*.

No, as in the C7 WAS a game changer. The C7 Grand Sport lapped Laguna Seca faster than the Ferrari F458 and a slew of other exotics. It is an insane amount of car for the price, and short of cars wearing a crest with the prefix "GT" in front of a number, or any other cars costing in excess of $300,000, not many cars can beat the C7 in a straight line or in the twisties. Heck, going back another generation, the C6 Z06 offered insane amount of performance for the price, and frankly not even cars with a dancing horse can keep up on track. Mid engine or not, the Corvette has ALWAYS been an insane value proposition, at least since the C5 generation. But has it really stopped anyone buying Porsches, BMWs, and the likes? NO.

Maybe, as there are a ton of unknowns on this new chassis. Before we all go ahead and crown the new C8 as the greatest car made since the old Acura NSX, keep this in mind. Back when the NSX came out, heaps of praises were lavished on the supposed supercar killer. "What?! Ferrari performance, mid engine exoticness, and all for less than 1/2 the price?" All the game changer talk about the NSX eventually went nowhere as people soon realized that buying at this stratosphere, brand name, cache, and a little bit of snobbiness goes a very long way. What eventually doomed the NSX wasn't that it wasn't attainable, but it was TOO attainable. With the market shifting to electric, autonomous, and utilitarian (SUVs and cross overs), this so-called game changer is coming out at the most inopportune time, in that it may fundamentally alter a small subset of the automotive market, but it isn't going to change any landscapes.

So this is where it gets interesting for me. Between the BMW MZ4 Coupe, and the Corvette C7 Grand Sport, I have a somewhat unique perspective on where I think the new C8 will ultimately land. If you take a look at Corvette in somewhat of a vacuum, they look fantastic, perform great on paper, and in real world testing they sure can't be beat. But my personal experience tells me otherwise, that despite the world beating performance, there are things that Chevrolet did to keep the cost low that makes it just shy of actually being a game changer and world beater.

First, there's the way it generates these insane test results. While it's not smoke and mirrors, they do it by benchmarking to a set of numbers rather than having a certain overall goal in mind. 0-60 in 2.9s? DCT, launch control, and insanely short 1-2-3 gear (in one of the promo videos they talked about how that sub 3 second is achieved because 3rd gear is engaged at the same time 2nd is. Which means you need to shift to 3rd to get to 60). What they don't tell you is that 4,5,6,7 and 8 all have to be geared super tall in order to retain some sort of civilized highway mileage, and that the transmission is going to force you to shift from 1-4th every time you're not above 3,000 RPM in first (it's call skip shift. Look it up). Or that number requires a ton of mass to be placed on the rear axle, hence the move to a mid engine rather than a front engine design, but that sacrifices a 50/50 weight ratio. Rumor again has it, that unlike other mid engine cars at the usual 40/60 split, the C8 is actually closer to the typical rear engine 911s at 30/70.

While this is all great for certain benchmarks, the car is built to meet and beat these benchmarks in mind, so from an overall package's perspective, other areas are compromised or more tech added to compensate. Notice the front tire to rear tire stagger is now 235/315? An 80mm stagger. Chassis is likely going to experience significant amount of understeer that they'll attempt to tune out using suspension trickery. End result is the car is likely going to be very fast, but just as Randy Pobst points out, even on the C7 platform the Corvette is excessively snap happy once all the traction aids are turned off, and on track it just doesn't feel connected to the driver like other top of the line chassis from Porsche, BMW, or the über exotics it claims to go up against.

Second, if you read the press and the reveal information right, the C8 is about 10% stiffer than the C7. By extrapolation that's about 17,000Nm/degree of deflection, which is about 1/2-2/3 of what your typical cars in this competitive range has. My MZ4 Coupe is 32,500Nm/degree of deflection, and when I drive it, you know it...It feels like it's carved out of a single block of forged aluminum. The Corvette, on the other hand, due to the longer wheelbase, wider, and heavier, flexes and moans into each and every turn like a convertible. Again, it's fast, don't get me wrong, and blindingly so, and enough so that you sort of overlook that particular flaw...But it just shows another area where GM must cut corners to offer this car at a price that they can compete at. $60K means no CF tub, no exotic braces and engineering that goes into making it super stiff to handle the rigors of high performance, no high-end material to ensure that they're not making a 3,600lbs behemoth and using a torque-y but low revving pushrod to overcome that mass disadvantage.

Which makes my third point. One of the reasons the C8 is so heavy compared to most of its competitors, which it is...At 3,600 lbs sans driver, it's in the M4 range and it doesn't even offer a back seat. It's because of the demographic demands. It's sold, still, primarily to OLD PEOPLE. Old people that doesn't want to have to climb over a huge threshold that keeps a chassis stiff. Old people that doesn't want a stiff ride as they cruise in their mid engine supercar on a Sunday afternoon. Old people that insist they must have trunk space to carry 2 sets of golf clubs as they trek on their retired asses to a golf course on a Tuesday afternoon. Old people that wants their friend in a Porsche to know that they can beat them on a stop light, but never actually do so. With that in mind, you can sort of understand why GM engineered the C8 the way they did.

Which is a good segue to why, despite it being an aspirational brand (yes Corvette is a brand. Try and find an exterior bow-tie logo on the car independent of the actual Corvette logo. You can't), the demographic continue to get older and older. That's right, a recent poll on Corvette Forum revealed that the AVERAGE owner's age for the latest generation, the C7, is approximately 68 years old. Sixty. Eight. Yes. Past retirement. For a large percentage of owners, this is going to be the last car they buy, and that presents a huge problem for Chevy as, while there are plenty of repeat buyers, most of these repeat buys are at the end of their purchasing life. So the move to mid engine really isn't about performance, in which case they would have found ways to make it lighter, coupled with a high revving V8, and gear set that don't lock you out of 2-3 gears to meet EPA mandates. No, the move to mid-engine is to save the Corvette brand, as they know they can no longer attract younger, affluent buyers without some fundamental changes, since the C7, despite its radical redesign for bother exterior and interior, and its supercar beating numbers, continue to only attract OLDER buyers (myself included. Midlife crisis hit me HARD).

So despite the talks of a game changer, I suspect, in reality the ONLY game it changes is the Corvette game. It's likely to attract younger buyers, thus extending the life of the Corvette brand so it doesn't suffer the same fate as Hardly Ableson. It's likely to convert a few fringe Porsche buyers, guys who must consider a C8 in conjunction with a 911/Cayman S/etc because they have to stretch to own a Porsche, but it isn't likely to convince the guys that must have a GT3 RS. It won't likely dent or impact Ferrari/Lambo/Mac sales, in fact, it won't likely kill the new NSX/Nissan GTR/Aston/Lotus etc, but it WILL kill the used car market for those supercars (for the same or lower price, better performance, and 3 years/50K mile warranty to boot, and less repair cost? No brainer).

But just like the original NSX before it? Sure, it made Lambo/Ferrari take notice, and the über cars of the day upped their game in performance and reliability and ownership experience. But that was likely to happen anyway, NSX or not. In 30 years, I doubt people would be lusting over the C8 like they would a Mark IV Supra or the original NSX because it would just be part of a line of Corvettes leading up to the C11.

[EternalVendetta]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

Haha...yeah there is some haters on the Porsche forums, but most have been pretty excited about it.

Kinda liking the blue....

Rapid Blue looks a lot lighter in a video I saw vs. how it looks in the configurator, almost like a baby blue.

I think the Jay Leno had a C8 in the darker blue, and it looked a bit like Estoril Blue, which is what I might end up going with as I think it'd be fun to transition to a blue C8 with red interior from my M235i with the same color combo.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by The HACK

First, before we all get TOO excited that the C8 is going to offer supercar like performance for 1/3rd the price...Guys, that's been the Chevrolet Corvette formula for decades. Is this really a game changer? Yes, no and maybe.

I think an important perspective that you've offered is that Chevy has been significantly increasing their game, maybe exponentially, but looking from the C6 Z06 to the ATS/CTS-V, ZL1-1LE and many others, they have been significantly ramping up the performance and yes, interiors, for a few years. I think of this as somewhat of an exponential curve, the C7 was a significant improvement in interior and performance, but at this point, the C8 is pretty much expected. There don't appear to be many compromises and it must be remembered that this is the most basic model. It's a game changer compared to many other cars IMO, but it's not so much of a radical evolution for Chevy. Just go look at a C7 Z06, that is an amazing piece of machinery IMO and it doesn't get as much attention as it should, although once you are considering a car like that, it means you don't need much, if any, practical features from the car, like space, ride height, etc. That automatically limits the number of buyers.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

I'll start by saying I own a 911, albeit a 993 so a very different animal than what will be competing with the C8 other than the looks dept. I think the 993 is a damn fine looking car, and so is the C8.

Much of what you said is why the C8 is going to be a giant slayer at $60K USD. Some of the pics of the camo'd C8 were clearly taken at the Ring and GM isn't ab out to release a car like this without doing their do diligence. Are 911's, McLaren, Ferrari et al going to lose sales. Maybe a few guys will jump ship but I think where the Supercars are going to be hurt is on the track. I don't know if they can up their game to justify the price delta on performance alone, there will always be the exclusivity aspect of Supercars and the C8 has effectively taken themselves mainstream with this car at this price point.

I live in a fairly affluent area, and there are a few Ferrari's in town, I see the odd R8, there was a parade of about 20 Lamborgini's that went through town a few weeks back and that always feels special. I have a feeling that we won't be able to swing a dead cat without seeing a C8.

I think we are arguing about things that may not be relevant. As I said before, in relative performance, the previous gen Corvette such as C6, C7 and now C8 have all had very competitive track performance vs. the supercars. It's not just the C8 generation that will all of a sudden start to outperform those supercars. But the 911 and the likes have been doing just fine.

As stated in the article you posted, the GM chassis was "archaic" and therefore they need to have software that helps to improve the handling. And that was my point. These intangible things are difficult to quantify but you can tell from just driving the car. Ultimately I have to drive the car to know for sure but I have no illusions that the $60K C8 with its cost saving manufacture-wise will better the 911 and the likes in term of refinement.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Yeah those damn unequal length wishbones and how antiquated they truly are. Car makers like Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren and F1 cars still use them, when will they ever learn that westrace knows more then they do. Lol.

Drives like a boat? Wow, yeah having a lower center of gravity, wider track, better suspension and even that laughable leaf spring you can’t get out of your head that solidly out handles many cars including your vaunted M3 and out of your own mouth you say that the C7 with that same transverse leaf still beats many very fast, great handling sports cars of the world. Then you say that they don’t need a mid engine Corvette because they’re fast enough with the current technology yet bemoan them for still using the leaf. You contradict yourself quite often.

Lols. A die hard Corvette fan. They don't change don't they :-)

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by WestRace

Lols. A die hard Corvette fan. They don't change don't they :-)

Just like some folks never actually understand the difference in leaf springs in a Corvette and leaf springs on a pickup. Totally unrelated. But hey, you keep going with your blind hatred.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by The HACK

In 30 years, I doubt people would be lusting over the C8 like they would a Mark IV Supra or the original NSX because it would just be part of a line of Corvettes leading up to the C11.

At the end of the day, the C8 will be a mass-market product just as GM intends it to be, and hence, it will be judged like any other mass-market products. It's reality and not some dissing contest.

Anyway, I used to have a Infinity G35. I mod the suspension to have stiffer springs, shocks, anti-sway bar and all that. It corners like crazy, but at the limits, it felt like the suspensions and the car went separate way. It felt very disconnected from the driver. Well it all came down to the chassis was just not stiff enough to handle the stiff suspension. On the other hand, my M3 had even stiffer suspension, but the whole car felt much better.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Just like some folks never actually understand the difference in leaf springs in a Corvette and leaf springs on a pickup. Totally unrelated. But hey, you keep going with your blind hatred.

It's not blind hatred. Blind hatred is just as bad as blind belief.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by WestRace

It's not blind hatred. Blind hatred is just as bad as blind belief.

My belief is based on trackside experience. You keep calling out deficiencies while C7's continue to hammer more expensive cars at every road course. With leaf springs. With pushrods. With run flats.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by EternalVendetta

Rapid Blue looks a lot lighter in a video I saw vs. how it looks in the configurator, almost like a baby blue.

I think the Jay Leno had a C8 in the darker blue, and it looked a bit like Estoril Blue, which is what I might end up going with as I think it'd be fun to transition to a blue C8 with red interior from my M235i with the same color combo.

It's beautiful....honestly I'm having a tough time getting my head around it being a Corvette.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by irishbimmer

I think the car is good looking from most angles; the question is this: Well put together? I had one a long time ago and hoping it is better.
The heat factor: in the old Vettes, your foot might burn up a little-will your back and rear feel the engine heat to a ridiculous point?
Could be like "sweatin to the oldies". Looks nice-hoping it is fun to drive as it looks.

ITT: person who has never driven a C7.

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

only thing I don't like about the C8 are the stock wheel choices...so I took some liberties and gave it a few different looks.

I'm assuming that the OEM wheels are still shitty soft cast ones. In that case, may as well budget for something forged. The Forgeline GS1R seems to look good on damn near everything, like my C7 GS:

[N54Yankee]

Here’s a vid of a walk around the new car at a dealer and we get some good shots of the interior and exterior. It’s not professionally done but good footage. Wish my C6 had that kind of air intake potential in the front. This thing is going to run really cool on the track even with added HP.