What happened to affordable true enthusiasts performance cars?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I don't care what you try to do to it, but a flat-4 boxer engine just can't be made to sound good.

Yeah, but Subaru can make a flat six sound awful too.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yeah, but Subaru can make a flat six sound awful too.

LOL.

I'll be honest, I've yet to hear a Porsche Boxter/Cayman, so maybe Porsche made one sound good, but I doubt it.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

LOL.

I'll be honest, I've yet to hear a Porsche Boxter/Cayman, so maybe Porsche made one sound good, but I doubt it.

The 718? It's okay, but the turbo takes a lot of the fun out of it, just like they always do.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I don't care what you try to do to it, but a flat-4 boxer engine just can't be made to sound good.

Boxer engines rarely ever sound great relative to V or inline engines nor do 4-cylinder engines in general sound good.

[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

While the engine is lacking there's not a better driver's car for the money. It is the closest car to the title of this thread as it's a sub-3000 lb RWD coupe that retails for under $30k USD. The reason it doesn't sell well is because people like to say on the internet all the time that they miss the days of pure, basic sports cars but when one is available they pick it apart mercilessly for not having the refinement, acceleration, and tech of more expensive and heavy cars. Cars from automakers that they bemoan everyday for "losing their way" making these fast, high tech, heavy , and expensive vehicles that people actually buy.

This ^

IMO the weak engine makes it even more a 'driver's car'; you have to really drive it to get the most out of it. You have to drive well and carry momentum, because you don't have the luxury of a huge pile of power on tap. If I ever get another e9x, I'll be looking for a 325i...for example.

[TheDudeMan]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.

Exactly my point. It's actually not a crap car is adored by many. Why do you think Top Gear is using one...

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I say no, it's because everyone wants a land yacht, they want 4 seats with lots of legroom, "oh I have to be able to take kids", they want a big trunk, they want lots of air conditioning, they want sunroofs, they want heated and cooled seats, they want auto transmissions, they want 20" wheels, and so on.

Even your own numbers point to the fact that it's not regulation, although as pointed out, the BRZ torque is really poor, they handicapped that car.

The 2-seat car can be built at the required weight just fine, it's just that no one wants a purely sports-car. Lots of people "say it", but they want it to cost 20-30K and be produced with economy of scale, not enough people are going to buy such a car with only enough room for 2 people and with such limited utility.

Hell, just fitting "americans" inside of the car requires massive overbuilt seats and cabin width...

And when you get that specialized and expensive, you might as well pony up for something faster and more capable, like a Cayman.

The days of the 914/6, Fiero, X 1/9, MR2 are not coming back, because no one wants it. You can buy a lightweight sports car, like a Lotus or a Morgan, you are just going to pay for it.

There absolutely is a market for an affordable sports car, it's just no one has the balls the build one, and every time they do, all people do is complain about everything - like the BRZ.

[Red Bread]

An ND Miata is a wildly better car than the BRZ, but I need a back seat. I'm hoping the new one is better, but the old one is still crap, even if it's the best crap currently available in an amusingly small defined window.

I continue to be amazed that no one will build a small, rwd, manual sedan or hatch in this realm. As a dad, a coupe is a pretty limited offering and if I wanted a sports car, I'd be willing to give up the back seat and just get a better car. The BRZ is playing in a really small market to begin with.

It will be interesting to see what Biermann and company achieve with the mid engine N Hyundai.

[Soterios]

Car manufacturers only sell cars that people will buy.

That's it.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

An ND Miata is a wildly better car than the BRZ, but I need a back seat.

I continue to be amazed that no one will build a small, rwd, manual sedan or hatch in this realm.

But that's the problem. One person "needs a backseat", the next "needs an automatic", the next "needs a big trunk", the next "needs a sunroof" and so on. Virtually no one wants "smaller" anything, they all want larger. This is a crazy small niche market. Niches don't sell well. Some do well because you can find people willing to pay for the niche, but the demand has to exist. Look at how trucks have changed over the last 20 years, to be just giant steamrollers. Hell, WRX killed their hatch years ago because the US "doesn't like hatches". The utility to me is far better than a small 4 door sedan, but people just don't want it, not enough to make it a worthwhile business endeavor.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

But that's the problem. One person "needs a backseat", the next "needs an automatic", the next "needs a big trunk", the next "needs a sunroof" and so on. Virtually no one wants "smaller" anything, they all want larger. This is a crazy small niche market. Niches don't sell well. Some do well because you can find people willing to pay for the niche, but the demand has to exist. Look at how trucks have changed over the last 20 years, to be just giant steamrollers. Hell, WRX killed their hatch years ago because the US "doesn't like hatches". The utility to me is far better than a small 4 door sedan, but people just don't want it, not enough to make it a worthwhile business endeavor.

But the WRX and STI are stale as shit. That's why no one wants one. I bought a couple of manual GTI's instead of the BRZ. Brilliant interior, comical amounts of tuning options, holds the dog, kid and spouse and is great for long road trips. Curious about the Mk8 now, likely to be my next car.

I'm 6'2", I hated the size of our E82, much less our F30. BMW can keep making cars for Shaq, I will continue to ignore them. My Z3 M Coupe did feel awfully spacious in relation to the NB Miata it replaced though.

[TargaM2]

https://www.toyota.com.au/all-new-gr-yaris

^This was just released here, they sold the initial 1000 cars in I believe 3 days. So there is definitely still huge demand for what I asked.
It's 1200kg, 200kw, AWD, manual, a coupe, with a carbon roof, aluminium bonnet doors hatch & they sold the first 1000 for $40k AUS$, that's under $30k US$ !!! so it can be done for reasonable money.
This car is going to be a massive success in Australia in a similar way that the early WRX was years ago. An entire aftermarket industry will pop up for it overnight too. Seems entering the WRC has finally helped Toyota get their mojo back.

[Humdizzle]

I would suggest to stop looking at car prices and focus more on the depreciation. There are plenty of lightweight rwd used sports cars out there that have a very slow depreciation. caymans, elise/exige, rx7, nsx... smarter to buy a used 100k exotic that has reached rock bottom than to buy some new BMW M car for 60-70k that will lose half its value in a few years.


dump the M2, its not really any lighter than an M3. Dump the Renault, even though its light its still wrong wheel drive.

Use 90% of the money to get a light rwd sports car that wont depreciate for weekend use. use 10% of the money for your DD. I would suggest an old civic si or something.

[VroomBahpop]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Good thing Porsche still exists

It's Porsha....

[Vivek.]

OP I don't get why you're limiting yourself to current offerings and cars that haven't been made yet. You yourself admit that what you want has been sold in the past, and with your current budget requirements can build a car that will be everything you want, it just won't be brand new. Meh. Being new is a silly requirement.

[TargaM2]

Sorry but your missing the point. The point is why most manufacturers continue to build bigger/heavier cars just throw more hp at them rather than investing in refucing weight which is what creates a true drivers car. It seems to be what the growth markets want such as china/US but this us at the detriment to how a true performance car drives.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Sorry but your missing the point. The point is why most manufacturers continue to build bigger/heavier cars just throw more hp at them rather than investing in reducing weight which is what creates a true drivers car. It seems to be what the growth markets want such as china/US but this us at the detriment to how a true performance car drives.

I'd say cost is the key reason for not 'simply' reducing weight. Safety standards still apply, even to a light weight.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

I would suggest to stop looking at car prices and focus more on the depreciation. There are plenty of lightweight rwd used sports cars out there that have a very slow depreciation. caymans, elise/exige, rx7, nsx... smarter to buy a used 100k exotic that has reached rock bottom than to buy some new BMW M car for 60-70k that will lose half its value in a few years.


dump the M2, its not really any lighter than an M3. Dump the Renault, even though its light its still wrong wheel drive.

Use 90% of the money to get a light rwd sports car that wont depreciate for weekend use. use 10% of the money for your DD. I would suggest an old civic si or something.

Which Renault? The Alpine is just a better done 4C. Mid engine and rwd.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Which Renault? The Alpine is just a better done 4C. Mid engine and rwd.

was referring to the OP and his renault weekend ride.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

was referring to the OP and his renault weekend ride.

Oh, how clever. Props on proper internetting.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Boxer engines rarely ever sound great relative to V or inline engines nor do 4-cylinder engines in general sound good.

Well come have a listen to my flat-6 Honda.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Sorry but your missing the point. The point is why most manufacturers continue to build bigger/heavier cars just throw more hp at them rather than investing in refucing weight which is what creates a true drivers car. It seems to be what the growth markets want such as china/US but this us at the detriment to how a true performance car drives.

It's extremely expensive to make a lightweight sports car. You need a dedicated chassis which is extremely costly to develop in low volumes that's comprised of lightweight materials like carbon fiber, aluminum, etc that all cost more than steel as you can't hide the weight of larger brakes, more robust suspension components, more powerful engine and transmission while still meeting current safety and emissions requirements. At the end of the day you end up with a very expensive to manufacture, niche car that will sell in volumes so low that it's profitability is highly unlikely. I'm astonished that so many enthusiasts simply don't understand that automakers are in business to do one thing only and that's turn a profit.

[freakystyly]

How did the i3 turn out with their bespoke carbon fiber chassis? Would it have sold better if it wasn't electric, ugly and half SUV?