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      10-11-2019, 11:33 PM   #2421
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. From Bloomberg:
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Not that even if that comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.
Selling more cars than Tesla is not the metric of success for an Electric Strategy.

It's a long term marathon.

America did not put an American on the Moon with the Mercury series either. Nor did they Wright Brothers fly a Concorde at Kitty Hawk. And Henry Ford did not build a Ford GT off his first assembly line.
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      10-12-2019, 12:14 AM   #2422
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Selling more cars than Tesla is not the metric of success for an Electric Strategy.

It's a long term marathon.
Well then they got their asses kicked on the first leg of the marathon by an upstart and by multiples - and their CEO's electric strategy got him fired (not to mention his margin failure).

... and given their Dir of Dev Klaus Fröhlich doesn't think customers want BEVs (he's right in that customers don't want BMW BEVs), I'm guessing it won't be long until Zipse tells him he's out too. Keep an eye out for that headline!

Further, look for BMW to pull back on carbon fiber in their future BEVs (ref margin point)
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      10-12-2019, 01:26 AM   #2423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. [COLOR="Blue"]From Bloomberg:[/COLOR]
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Note that even if Krueger's prediction comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.

Horrendous sales numbers, failed strategy, ousted CEO = failure.


Back on topic of the new g8x design: there's bravery, and then there's hold-my-beer stupidity ... which is this? Well, a lead designer usually doesn't put out a letter defending bravery.
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan? I suppose anyone can sell more units at a loss, depending on how much of a loss you're willing to accept. How long can they continue to consistently lose profit until the honeymoon is over and investors decide to sell out while there's still something to sell? Everyone eventually has to pay their debt, regardless of what they promise for the future.
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      10-12-2019, 01:41 AM   #2424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. [COLOR="Blue"]From Bloomberg:[/COLOR]
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Note that even if Krueger's prediction comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.

Horrendous sales numbers, failed strategy, ousted CEO = failure.


Back on topic of the new g8x design: there's bravery, and then there's hold-my-beer stupidity ... which is this? Well, a lead designer usually doesn't put out a letter defending bravery.
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan? I suppose anyone can sell more units at a loss, depending on how much of a loss you're willing to accept. How long can they continue to consistently lose profit until the honeymoon is over and investors decide to sell out while there's still something to sell? Everyone eventually has to pay their debt, regardless of what they promise for the future.
That, PLUS I believe the surge for Tesla with the Model 3 came from those who had been waiting multiple years for delivery.
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      10-12-2019, 06:01 AM   #2425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan?
Well, it's a "yes" from Tesla's investors (see below) but let's try a quick thought experiment:

You and I build an car company from scratch and in 5 years we're beating entrenched competitors 3:1 and beating Porsche on the Nurburgring. Should we pack it up or raise money and keep going? If you wanted to pack it in, I'd buy you out, but unless you're a complete idiot you wouldn't. (note that no company in the history of automobiles has ever done that .... except Tesla)

In any event, here's the opinion of Tesla's investors the market:



(note: i'm not in TSLA, never have been, won't be, and will likely not ever own a Tesla)
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      10-12-2019, 11:37 AM   #2426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.

So quit telling me I took the thread off topic.

And clearly you do not understand Corporations.
Right and, as you highlighted, I said it was a failure in their eyes.

My point about it being off-topic is that you took that one line from what I said and provided me with the same 3 or 4 slides from their investor relations presentation, over multiple posts. I'm glad you can copy and paste but if you know corporations then you'll know internal discussions are often different than what is presented to the public and investors. By not meeting certain goals, aka failure(s), it has led to a reimplementation of that said strategy to attain those goals going forward. If they were to admit to not attaining such goals that would negatively affect their share price, which no company will do without having to.

Thanks to GrussGott for further clarifying along the same point.

Time will tell if sales are affected by the new design strategy but we won't know till the new 4 goes into production. Current G20 production doesn't incorporate this BS.
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      10-12-2019, 01:15 PM   #2427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.

So quit telling me I took the thread off topic.

And clearly you do not understand Corporations.
Right and, as you highlighted, I said it was a failure in their eyes.

My point about it being off-topic is that you took that one line from what I said and provided me with the same 3 or 4 slides from their investor relations presentation, over multiple posts. I'm glad you can copy and paste but if you know corporations then you'll know internal discussions are often different than what is presented to the public and investors. By not meeting certain goals, aka failure(s), it has led to a reimplementation of that said strategy to attain those goals going forward. If they were to admit to not attaining such goals that would negatively affect their share price, which no company will do without having to.

Thanks to GrussGott for further clarifying along the same point.

Time will tell if sales are affected by the new design strategy but we won't know till the new 4 goes into production. Current G20 production doesn't incorporate this BS.
If you really did know Corporations, you you know that releasing information in Investors Reports that goes against what the Company is actually doing or thinking are the grounds for Investor Lawsuits against the Company, Executives and Board of Directors.

Furthermore, as stated before, no BOD would allow a Company to continue a failed strategy.
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      10-12-2019, 07:03 PM   #2428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan?
Well, it's a "yes" from Tesla's investors (see below) but let's try a quick thought experiment:

You and I build an car company from scratch and in 5 years we're beating entrenched competitors 3:1 and beating Porsche on the Nurburgring. Should we pack it up or raise money and keep going? If you wanted to pack it in, I'd buy you out, but unless you're a complete idiot you wouldn't. (note that no company in the history of automobiles has ever done that .... except Tesla)

In any event, here's the opinion of Tesla's investors the market:



(note: i'm not in TSLA, never have been, won't be, and will likely not ever own a Tesla)
Eventually investors will realize that there's a cap on pure EV growth. Much of the infrastructure in the US, let alone the rest of the world, isn't amenable to unlimited EV ownership. There's variation in lifestyle, commuting requirements, living arrangements, among other circumstances that still present obstacles to EV ownership. How long will it take to change this? Will infrastructure and cultures around the world continue to change at a quick enough rate to accommodate the growth needed to sustain a company like Tesla, or will sales eventually plateau? Even with government incentives, and the growth and investor interest they currently generate, they can't seem to turn a profit very often. Should they continue riding the wave until it crashes? Of course, what other option do they currently have? It doesn't mean that other manufacturers should emulate that model. Like another member posted earlier, bmw doesn't necessarily need to match Tesla's current sales numbers.

It's worth noting that BMW and others are currently investing in EV technology, and their profits are taking a hit, at least partially due to this, however, they're still in the black. The difference is that bmw, along with other auto makers, haven't placed all of their eggs in the risky, high performance, luxury EV basket.
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      10-12-2019, 10:12 PM   #2429
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You're forgetting China, they are laser focused on EV, even if rest of the world don't go at same speed, China alone can definitely sustain a very large EV industry.
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      10-13-2019, 01:23 AM   #2430
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Look at TSLA this year, they were at $350 per share for about 3 months, then dropped down to about $240 or so for most of the year. That is quite a bit drop.

I agree with the comment from Sedan_Clan about the initial surge of demand - you can now just go and buy a Model 3. I think the next year will be very interesting to see if they continue to sell to new customers or if they just end up with a huge surplus of cars sitting around.
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      10-15-2019, 07:33 PM   #2431
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You're forgetting China, they are laser focused on EV, even if rest of the world don't go at same speed, China alone can definitely sustain a very large EV industry.
That's a good point.
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      10-23-2019, 10:14 AM   #2432
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Not trying to be ignorant, but I'm surprised there's such a lengthy discussion on this. Comparing Tesla to BMW is Apple to oranges. No way are they even in the same category. Comparing Tesla to Kia is more reasonable.

Tesla is ran by a fraudster and is significantly behind in the EV market. Plenty of manufacturers produce more reliable EVs for the same price. Those manufacturers also offer support, something Tesla has failed to build on.

I get it though, they WERE ONCE cool looking cars, but now they're rather basic. They look cheap(wheels ew), they aren't reliable, and they're rather boring to drive. I'm sure I'll have some who disagree, but I'm certain Tesla won't be around in 5 yrs. $TSLAQ
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      10-23-2019, 10:18 AM   #2433
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Strange that my previous post regarding Tesla was deleted... Also justifies my intentions. $TSLAQ
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      10-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #2434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhizzurpF View Post
Not trying to be ignorant, but I'm surprised there's such a lengthy discussion on this. Comparing Tesla to BMW is Apple to oranges. No way are they even in the same category. Comparing Tesla to Kia is more reasonable.

Tesla is ran by a fraudster and is significantly behind in the EV market. Plenty of manufacturers produce more reliable EVs for the same price. Those manufacturers also offer support, something Tesla has failed to build on.

I get it though, they WERE ONCE cool looking cars, but now they're rather basic. They look cheap(wheels ew), they aren't reliable, and they're rather boring to drive. I'm sure I'll have some who disagree, but I'm certain Tesla won't be around in 5 yrs. $TSLAQ
Except that a lot of luxury car buyers (BMW, Merc, Audi) also look at Tesla. There's a bunch of people on this forum who have owned countless BMW's and now own a Tesla. Tesla has a wide market reach from everyday Camry buyers, to even 3 series owners.
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      10-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #2435
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Tesla is incomparable to BMW in every way. Similar to comparing apples to oranges. The exterior design looks cheap(is cheap), cabin serenity is inferior to nearly all luxury manufacturers, and the company is ran by a fraudster (Musk).

Not to mention they are repeatedly embarrassing themselves at nurburging. They will never be on the same spectrum as Porsche, yet they continue to try as if they have something to prove. Laughable.
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      10-23-2019, 08:59 PM   #2436
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I actually really liked a lot about the model 3 when I drove it, I just had my own concerns about the company itself. Also concerned about the build quality and want more maturation of the product. (It is also just.... so ugly)
Yeah, Tesla has just published their Q3. Still no change from how it's been for 15 years and counting: just a couple of quarters from bankruptcy.
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      10-23-2019, 11:31 PM   #2437
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Yeah, Tesla has just published their Q3. Still no change from how it's been for 15 years and counting: just a couple of quarters from bankruptcy.
Tesla won't ever go completely under. Their IP is too valuable, they would get acquired before that would happen. I'm talking about:

Their track record with support for older cars recently read an article about lack of support for first-gen roadsters and trouble when the owners needed work on them. They ended up having to a specialist. Good luck finding those around the country.

Numerous build quality issues:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/t...cancels-order/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...bility-issues/

Problems getting support for their car:
https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/...r-13796037.php
https://bgr.com/2019/10/17/tesla-iss...g-wont-charge/

Changes in what is actually offered with the car and pricing:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/07...-product-line/

In addition, Elon is really a cowboy owner who can be a risk to the company. Such as when he got investigate by the SEC. (Settled, but really?)
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-226

I honestly liked the 3, I drove the LR that a friend owns, and test drove the performance. The Performance Model is fantastic, but I wouldn't put the LR in the same boat as the M340i. I didn't want to deal with the charger installation, as it required some tricky rewiring. Additionaly, interior is really meh IMO, and it's ugly as sin.

I did actually try to look a bit to find what your previous BMW cars were, but the vast majority of your posts are talking about Teslas, and I am not gonna trawl 500+ posts to find it. Honestly man, it's tricky to find what you drove, and what your opinion of it was.
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      10-24-2019, 02:40 AM   #2438
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Originally Posted by tehvantes View Post
Tesla won't ever go completely under. Their IP is too valuable, they would get acquired before that would happen. I'm talking about:
You're new here. This thread is not (29 pages, see?) Everything on your list has been discussed, most of it multiple times. Most of it is also obsolete because Tesla moves faster than its critics can.
Quote:
I did actually try to look a bit to find what your previous BMW cars were, but the vast majority of your posts are talking about Teslas, and I am not gonna trawl 500+ posts to find it. Honestly man, it's tricky to find what you drove, and what your opinion of it was.
No, you didn't try at all. Until yesterday, I didn't post much about Teslas for several months. You would've seen all other posts if you had only scrolled a couple of screens down. You would've also seen the last BMW we had in the family right there in the middle of the first page of results. And to see the thread where I go over my impressions of the Tesla in detail (first right after the purchase, and then several months later), you just needed to switch to the "threads started" search. How difficult is that?
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      10-30-2019, 07:26 PM   #2439
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We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
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      10-31-2019, 10:00 AM   #2440
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My coworker demonstrated the smart summon to me yesterday. The attempt failed and I had large angst that his car was going to hit something. The car got easily confused. I'd say that since smart summon allows the owner to panic-stop the procedure, he is actually driving the car. So, if their is property damage, or worse, a person is injured or killed, the operator of the smart summon mode is responsible. The LEO should have issued the operator a ticket for running the stop sign.

It's similar to if you were to drive your car, jump out of it, and let it hit a school bus that kills 20 children. You would be held liable. Can we just let Elon go smoke his weed on some island so we can get automobiles back to normal?
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      10-31-2019, 10:19 AM   #2441
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I've said a similar thing for a while now. I think Tesla will still be a company, they just wont be making vehicles. Tesla proved there was a market for EV's (other than the awful looking Leaf), and now all the big names get to capitalize. In my opinion, Tesla will end up selling their software to manufacturers, and that's how they will still be a company. Such a small company with a short life span literally cannot compete with the likes of larger names who have infinitely more resources, whether it be workers, R&D costs, plants, etc.

The Taycan had over 30,000 pre-orders before they even unveiled the official car, or it's price point. While it isn't the 300,000+ pre-orders the Model 3 had, the Porsche is more than 2-3 times the price. BMW is already testing it's full EV with the Mini E, Audi has the E-tron, Infiniti and Lexus have pledged to have a considerable amount of EV's in their lineup. Once the market is "flooded" with EV's from KNOWN brands, Tesla likely won't be able to keep up. They have also proven to not have the best QA, which bigger manufacturers would be able to alleviate with their own models. Part of Tesla's sales model is the status symbol aspect, which is why the Leaf can't be considered a direct competitor. People who claim that Tesla's are luxury have obviously never been in an actual luxury car. Once the current "luxury" brands have an EV out at a similar price point, it's game over.
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      10-31-2019, 10:51 AM   #2442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
People who claim that Tesla's are luxury have obviously never been in an actual luxury car. Once the current "luxury" brands have an EV out at a similar price point, it's game over.
BMW 3 series is one of the top cars traded in for the model 3....but I can’t say how many of those owners think Tesla’s are luxury.
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