Hospital Debt Advice

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Mr Carrots

Why on earth not? Many soft tissue injuries can only be repaired in a limited time.

Tear a bicep, tricep, quad or pec tendon and you have a couple of weeks window to fix it before it becomes permanently disfigured. And no, OHIP does not view those as essential. My father in law has required a shoulder repair in his rotator cuff for a year now and waited 4 months for a hernia repair that just got posponed again for no good reason. I tried to get him to pay cash and come here but hes got Stockholm syndrome for the system that hes paid into his whole life will eventually come through for him

The province also let my mother in law almost die and become crippled because they wanted to save a few hundred dollars on a CT scan for an elderly woman whod just had a stroke.



Still not as bad as the horrors my UK family has experienced on the NHS but close

I don't know about your personal situations or your father in laws but I've had a tear in my rotator cuff as well as a groin hernia which were operated on promptly with minimu wait.

Look our system is far from perfect my point was that if you don't need to worry about a surgery in Canada if you don't have the financial means different from the US. Of course we want our wait times reduced but do we want to abolish universal healthcare for private? Heck no.

Have a great day

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

If it's non emergency then why would you want an MRI immediately?

Let me recap:

1. Patient separates shoulder. While painful, and should be addressed in a reasonable length of time (up to 72 hours, let's say) to prevent scar tissue and permanent loss of motion.

2. Patient suffers a brain aneurysm, which can cause immediate death.

Which one would be more likely to be called an "emergency?"

Have a great day.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I don't know about your personal situations or your father in laws but I've had a tear in my rotator cuff as well as a groin hernia which were operated on promptly with minimu wait.

Look our system is far from perfect my point was that if you don't need to worry about a surgery in Canada if you don't have the financial means different from the US. Of course we want our wait times reduced but do we want to abolish universal healthcare for private? Heck no.

Have a great day

You do realize that the US government (state and federal) pay for 2/3 of all healthcare that's delivered in the US?

Canadians don't have prescription drug coverage, IIRC? And many, many Canadians have supplemental insurance policies so they can escape the government system, I believe? This is true across the EU as well.

Have a great day.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

You do realize that the US government (state and federal) pay for 2/3 of all healthcare that's delivered in the US?

Canadians don't have prescription drug coverage, IIRC? And many, many Canadians have supplemental insurance policies so they can escape the government system, I believe? This is true across the EU as well.

Have a great day.

Most companies provide supplementary health coverage for their workers so almost 90% of the drug costs are covered. Here in Ontario if you're under 25 then your prescription is free also (new law). The supplementary health coverage is jus that a supplement not an escape from the healthcare system lol. I don't know much about your healthcare system in the US and thanks for educating me about government paying for 2/3 of the cost, I did not know that. Now your turn to learn a bit about canadas system.

Cheers.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

Let me recap:

1. Patient separates shoulder. While painful, and should be addressed in a reasonable length of time (up to 72 hours, let's say) to prevent scar tissue and permanent loss of motion.

2. Patient suffers a brain aneurysm, which can cause immediate death.

Which one would be more likely to be called an "emergency?"

Have a great day.

Both are an emergency situation and I can assure you the hospitals and physicians here will deem that as emergency as well and deal with them accordingly.

If you like your system better I suggest you keep it and let us keep ours as well.

Have a great day

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Most companies provide supplementary health coverage for their workers so almost 90% of the drug costs are covered. Here in Ontario if you're under 25 then your prescription is free also (new law). The supplementary health coverage is jus that a supplement not an escape from the healthcare system lol. I don't know much about your healthcare system in the US and thanks for educating me about government paying for 2/3 of the cost, I did not know that. Now your turn to learn a bit about canadas system.

Cheers.

Yes - the Canadian system isn't that very different than the US, other than it's more expensive, and with longer wait times. Canadians also can't reasonably sue their providers, hospitals, drug makers, etc., and they enjoy the benefit of US drug and medical device advancements.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Both are an emergency situation and I can assure you the hospitals and physicians here will deem that as emergency as well and deal with them accordingly.

If you like your system better I suggest you keep it and let us keep ours as well.

Have a great day

Then why did the previous Canadian poster have to wait 4 months for an MRI/surgery on his shoulder?

I worked with a Canadian who had a lump on his testicle. Took him 6 months to see a urologist. He never got there; it was testicular cancer (which is very aggressive) and he died waiting.

Have a great day.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

Then why did the previous Canadian poster have to wait 4 months for an MRI/surgery on his shoulder?

I worked with a Canadian who had a lump on his testicle. Took him 6 months to see a urologist. He never got there; it was testicular cancer (which is very aggressive) and he died waiting.

Have a great day.

You're picking one example and basing your opinion on that and assume that everyone has long waits for emergency procedures in Canada which simply is not true. Here are some points that you need to consider.

1- Canada and US healthcare systems aren't similar. One is universal the other insurance based.
2- Canadian medical devices are as equal if not better than the ones from the US. Our physicians are as good as the ones in your country and not all our devices are imported from your, get over yourself.
3- ask any Canadian if they'd prefer to changer their universal healthcare system with yours. I bet you'd get. 95% resounding NO.
4- there's no healthcare controversy in Canada, we're content with the system and know we have to pay high taxes to support it and we will.
5- no one in Canada is denied healthcare whether they're poor or rich. In the US, 30 million people don't have health insurance because they simply can't afford it.
6- insurance and drug companies lobby your government for laws that benefit them. Not in Canada.
7- prescription drugs are much cheaper in Canada than the US.

I really didn't want to turn this into comparing Canada vs US healthcare system but you insisted.

As I said before, I don't want to continue this discussion. If you're happy with the way things are going in your country as far as healthcare goes then may the force be with you. We're content with our premitive healthcare system and let us be.

Thank you and have a good day.

[Habs11]

So back to the OP - I may have missed something because a Canadian Healthcare System discussion popped up. Did you sign and consent to an EKG? Seems to me you signed up for an MRI and the provider correctly estimated your MRI cost (after health plan discount) of $700. I'm guessing the $150 was the physician fee to read the MRI study.

If they can not prove you wanted an EKG then you are not liable. Talk this through with your insurance provider as suggested (even if you have hard copy EOBs call them and discuss).

If there is no evidence you signed up for an EKG you will have work to do but should not have to pay for it.

[UncleWede]

This reminds me of a recent issue my wife had. Dr. gave her a referral for some testing. She went with the papers provided. She paid the ~$800 copay. Got back to the Dr.s office for results and the Dr questioned why she had a particular test done. Seems one of the assistants messed up on the referral. I was asked to come consult with the Dr. A few words about malpractice and I think we got the copay back at the expense of the Drs office. But have to check with wife.

[MaximusB]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

Let me recap:

1. Patient separates shoulder. While painful, and should be addressed in a reasonable length of time (up to 72 hours, let's say) to prevent scar tissue and permanent loss of motion.

2. Patient suffers a brain aneurysm, which can cause immediate death.

Which one would be more likely to be called an "emergency?"

Have a great day.

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Both are an emergency situation and I can assure you the hospitals and physicians here will deem that as emergency as well and deal with them accordingly.

If you like your system better I suggest you keep it and let us keep ours as well.

Have a great day

Sorry OP for jacking your thread (what have I done?). Ali, sorry to hear about your story and I'm glad everything worked out. Also let me add that Ali is correct, or at least I agree with his comments, that Doctors and Hospitals will make their assessment of what is an emergency and what is not. Is it perfect? No it is not. Could our system be improved and have wait time reduced? Absolutely.

Also let me clear up that a separated shoulder and a dislocated shoulder are two different types of injuries. A dislocated shoulder is not considered as an emergency because most of the time paramedics can put it back in place without sending you the hospital. A dislocation is only painful when the shoulder socket is out of place because the socket will be pressing against the nerves and restrict blood flow to your arm. However the pain goes away virtually instantly the second the socket gets put back in place. I can get into more details on how that feels if you want as my shoulder popped out 4 times in a span of less than 2 years. Also you'll get back full range of motion once the swelling subsides, in fact you'll gain more range of motion in a way after each dislocation because the labrum gets more stretched or torn and more unstable each time. Hence why you hear people say the shoulder gets easier and easier to come out with each subsequent dislocation. The "good" thing is you'll feel less pain each time the shoulder comes out. Yes it can lead to further damage if left untreated, BUT that takes YEARS and only if you choose to continue physical activities. I have teammates that quit playing hockey because they chose not to have surgery and their shoulder is perfectly fine now they stopped physical sports.

In Canada, people do have the option to pay out of pocket for faster (much faster) medical treatment. In my case, if I were to pay out of my own pocket I could have had all the tests and surgery done within the same week from my initial doctor visit. Could I have paid out of my pocket at the time? Yes, but it would still put a financial burden on myself. Given my injury was not an emergency why would I pay when our health care system will take care of everything if I just wait, and let people who are in need of emergency care get treatment first. So yes I am glad and happy with our health care.

[Mr Carrots]

I have teammates that quit playing hockey because they chose not to have surgery and their shoulder is perfectly fine now they stopped physical sports.

If you think that's an acceptable solution, no wonder you like the Canadian system.

Personally I had my labrum repaired so I could keep doing the things I love, but I also *have* the option to get it repaired.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

You're picking one example and basing your opinion on that and assume that everyone has long waits for emergency procedures in Canada which simply is not true. Here are some points that you need to consider.

1- Canada and US healthcare systems aren't similar. One is universal the other insurance based.
2- Canadian medical devices are as equal if not better than the ones from the US. Our physicians are as good as the ones in your country and not all our devices are imported from your, get over yourself.
3- ask any Canadian if they'd prefer to changer their universal healthcare system with yours. I bet you'd get. 95% resounding NO.
4- there's no healthcare controversy in Canada, we're content with the system and know we have to pay high taxes to support it and we will.
5- no one in Canada is denied healthcare whether they're poor or rich. In the US, 30 million people don't have health insurance because they simply can't afford it.
6- insurance and drug companies lobby your government for laws that benefit them. Not in Canada.
7- prescription drugs are much cheaper in Canada than the US.

I really didn't want to turn this into comparing Canada vs US healthcare system but you insisted.

As I said before, I don't want to continue this discussion. If you're happy with the way things are going in your country as far as healthcare goes then may the force be with you. We're content with our premitive healthcare system and let us be.

Thank you and have a good day.

#2 - you missed the point - Canadians get meds and devices at cost, because the US pays for their development.

#5 - no one in the US is denied life-saving treatment based upon ability to pay. The 30M that can't afford insurance are covered by Medicaid and other government programs. The only ones who aren't are illegal immigrants- and they get free healthcare at emergency rooms and some clinics.

#6 - the lobbyists in the US directly benefit Canadians as well.

#7 - your drugs are cheaper because the cost to develop them is padded into the US drug prices. By Canadian law, drug prices are limited to the cost of manufacturing, plus a small, regulated profit margin.

You really don't get this....

[eluded]

Sorry to hear about that. Make sure to follow up so your credit doesn't get impacted.

[Kolyan2k]

So far I haven't paid a single medical bill if it was over the amount I was supposed to get charged. If they try to pull some shady billing practice on me, then I pay them zero. To this day nothing ever got on my credit report, but I think it can so I would be careful unless you don't care.
I don't understand why some get so stressed out and try to set up some donations to cover medical bills. I used to owe hospital many many thousands of dollars for simple emergency visits to complex surgeries.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

#2 - you missed the point - Canadians get meds and devices at cost, because the US pays for their development.

#5 - no one in the US is denied life-saving treatment based upon ability to pay. The 30M that can't afford insurance are covered by Medicaid and other government programs. The only ones who aren't are illegal immigrants- and they get free healthcare at emergency rooms and some clinics.

#6 - the lobbyists in the US directly benefit Canadians as well.

#7 - your drugs are cheaper because the cost to develop them is padded into the US drug prices. By Canadian law, drug prices are limited to the cost of manufacturing, plus a small, regulated profit margin.

You really don't get this....

As i said before, you are not the centre of the world. Drugs don't just get researched and manufactured only in the US. Medical advancements don't just happen in the US. Again get over yourself.

Leave us alone with our crappy universal healthcare will you. Enjoy your excellent healthcare system.

I don't get this perhaps because I'm not as smart as you....

[Joekerr]

Ahh, what the heck, I'll jump in too.

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

#2 - you missed the point - Canadians get meds and devices at cost, because the US pays for their development.

Source? The US is not, contrary to your opinion, the centre of the world where they give generously. They just don't. Americans are in it to make money, plain and simple. I don't say this as a bad thing, because I understand it. So no, Canadians don't get anything at "cost". Why on earth would anyone sell something at cost? Why work at all if there's nothing in it for them from profit margin perspective? The only way a US developer would sell devices / meds to Canada was IF they could make a profit on it. Period.

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

#6 - the lobbyists in the US directly benefit Canadians as well.

LOL - Whut? How do lobbyists benefit ANYONE other than those who are paying them to lobby? Which is big pharma. Trust me, they aren't lobbying for the good of Joe Public. So they are not benefitting Americans (aside from those Americans who are paying them to lobby their drug / device of course, but they are an extremely small subset of the American population) and they certainly aren't doing anything for Canada either. So...no.

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

#7 - your drugs are cheaper because the cost to develop them is padded into the US drug prices. By Canadian law, drug prices are limited to the cost of manufacturing, plus a small, regulated profit margin.

You really don't get this....

So see, this appears to contradict your first comment about being at cost. But you are right to a degree - there is a profit margin in Canada, things certainly aren't sold at cost here. The profit margin may very well not be regulated as much in America, I do not know your laws, but if that were the case, why is your ire not directed at the lobbyists in your point above who are doing so much to "benefit" America? And the Americans who own the rights to these drugs?

Again, I'll reiterate - Americans are not selling the drugs to Canada unless there's profit in it. And all the SR&ED going into developing them is baked in to the cost.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

As i said before, you are not the centre of the world. Drugs don't just get researched and manufactured only in the US. Medical advancements don't just happen in the US. Again get over yourself.

Leave us alone with our crappy universal healthcare will you. Enjoy your excellent healthcare system.

I don't get this perhaps because I'm not as smart as you....

The vast majority of drugs and medical devices are paid for in the US, as there's no limits on what a company can charge. There are limits everywhere else in the world - not sure why you keep denying that?

And most clinical trials are also conducted in the US, as we have the medical infrastructure for it.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Ahh, what the heck, I'll jump in too.

Source? The US is not, contrary to your opinion, the centre of the world where they give generously. They just don't. Americans are in it to make money, plain and simple. I don't say this as a bad thing, because I understand it. So no, Canadians don't get anything at "cost". Why on earth would anyone sell something at cost? Why work at all if there's nothing in it for them from profit margin perspective? The only way a US developer would sell devices / meds to Canada was IF they could make a profit on it. Period.

LOL - Whut? How do lobbyists benefit ANYONE other than those who are paying them to lobby? Which is big pharma. Trust me, they aren't lobbying for the good of Joe Public. So they are not benefitting Americans (aside from those Americans who are paying them to lobby their drug / device of course, but they are an extremely small subset of the American population) and they certainly aren't doing anything for Canada either. So...no.

So see, this appears to contradict your first comment about being at cost. But you are right to a degree - there is a profit margin in Canada, things certainly aren't sold at cost here. The profit margin may very well not be regulated as much in America, I do not know your laws, but if that were the case, why is your ire not directed at the lobbyists in your point above who are doing so much to "benefit" America? And the Americans who own the rights to these drugs?

Again, I'll reiterate - Americans are not selling the drugs to Canada unless there's profit in it. And all the SR&ED going into developing them is baked in to the cost.

Follow the ball:

1. Lobbyists in the US generate money, tax breaks, etc. for Big Pharma.

2. Big Pharma spends billions on developing drugs, knowing they can recoup their investment in the US market, as well as make a profit.

3. When those drugs are sold in Canada, and everywhere else in the world, Big Pharma can only charge what it costs to manufacture the drug, plus a small profit margin (about 7%, IIRC).

So the whole world get new drugs and medical devices, courtesy of the US - they don't subsidize the HUGE cost of experimentation, trials, etc.

The US lobbyists benefit the world.

[Maynard]

Not to jump into the fray late, but if all those drugs and devices are developed in the USA (and with TAX MONEY - not much really comes from the industry itself beyond initial bench testing) then why are we the ones that get shafted with extortionistic pricing? Oh yeah, those lobbyists that somehow do such good.

And there is a large amount of drug and device testing done in Europe and what is known as the 'third world' - much of it unknown to us because of (wait for it) - those lobbyists who keep up protectionistic legal standards that make it hard to bring euro drugs/devices in.

Also, totally naïve to say nobody is denied life saving Tx here in the states. There are many many procedures, meds, and devices that are not approved by Medicaid/medicare, so they are off limits for the 'poor' (which now includes lots of people paying for economy health care plans). And if you think it is hard to find a specialist or surgeon in Canada, try finding one in the US who will take straight Medicaid (they are there, just booked up into 2019 already).

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Also, totally naïve to say nobody is denied life saving Tx here in the states. There are many many procedures, meds, and devices that are not approved by Medicaid/medicare, so they are off limits for the 'poor' (which now includes lots of people paying for economy health care plans). And if you think it is hard to find a specialist or surgeon in Canada, try finding one in the US who will take straight Medicaid (they are there, just booked up into 2019 already).

On my last insurance (individual plan also) there was only one ENT that would take it and I had to wait like 2 months for an appointment. Then the hurricane ended up coming around the time of my appointment so they called to say they would reschedule and they never did. Still haven't seen an ENT.

And I paid for my insurance, it wasn't medicare or anything like that. It's just an individual plan as I'm self employed.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Not to jump into the fray late, but if all those drugs and devices are developed in the USA (and with TAX MONEY - not much really comes from the industry itself beyond initial bench testing) then why are we the ones that get shafted with extortionistic pricing? Oh yeah, those lobbyists that somehow do such good.

And there is a large amount of drug and device testing done in Europe and what is known as the 'third world' - much of it unknown to us because of (wait for it) - those lobbyists who keep up protectionistic legal standards that make it hard to bring euro drugs/devices in.

Also, totally naïve to say nobody is denied life saving Tx here in the states. There are many many procedures, meds, and devices that are not approved by Medicaid/medicare, so they are off limits for the 'poor' (which now includes lots of people paying for economy health care plans). And if you think it is hard to find a specialist or surgeon in Canada, try finding one in the US who will take straight Medicaid (they are there, just booked up into 2019 already).

I think it's ok to believe in something as long as you do the proper research and sure that you're correct about it. I feel most people on here are set on their ways and no matter what they see to the contrary they're just too stubborn to see the other side. Justification of the self beliefs seems to be more important than the truth.

I'll bf having a glass of cognac tonight to forget what's going on in this world.

Cheers...