Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I got that, but Jeezus, that color combo.

This thread has again turned into the "American car... but the interior sucks" meme. It's just amusing. For a performance car, the purpose of the interior is to help you drive it better. From that perspective, I don't see where the Caddy fails vs. the Bimmer.

The issue is it's a luxury performance car. If interior didn't matter many of us probably wouldn't be looking at these cars to begin with, since part of the price premium is supposed to go towards luxurious interiors.

While I don't think the interior of the caddy is bad... I also don't feel it's nearly as nice as the interior in the g8x (color combos aside)

The way I see it... caddy drives better, but g8x has nicer interior. Both cars have their pros and cons. I'm just mad I can't drive one to see if the feel of the car outweighs the concessions in interior quality compared to the g8x... before deciding to buy one.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I got that, but Jeezus, that color combo.

This thread has again turned into the "American car... but the interior sucks" meme. It's just amusing. For a performance car, the purpose of the interior is to help you drive it better. From that perspective, I don't see where the Caddy fails vs. the Bimmer.

That is not true at all. Check out the newest Jeeps and the RAM trucks. Beautiful interiors! The Escalade has a high quality interior, too. C8 Corvette’s driver focused cockpit layout is a thing of beauty. However, this Cadillac’s interior is bland as fuck. This is not an anti-American sentiment or whatever you want to call it. It’s just the truth.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

That is not true at all. Check out the newest Jeeps and the RAM trucks. Beautiful interiors! The Escalade has a high quality interior, too. C8 Corvette’s driver focused cockpit layout is a thing of beauty. However, this Cadillac’s interior is bland as fuck. This is not an anti-American sentiment or whatever you want to call it. It’s just the truth.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

The issue is it's a luxury performance car. If interior didn't matter many of us probably wouldn't be looking at these cars to begin with, since part of the price premium is supposed to go towards luxurious interiors.

While I don't think the interior of the caddy is bad... I also don't feel it's nearly as nice as the interior in the g8x (color combos aside)

The way I see it... caddy drives better, but g8x has nicer interior. Both cars have their pros and cons. I'm just mad I can't drive one to see if the feel of the car outweighs the concessions in interior quality compared to the g8x... before deciding to buy one.

I've looked closely at both the pics you posted of the Caddy and BMW. I own a GM product and 4 BMWs (5 if you count my retired E30). To me the BMW interior is gawdy and akin to a brothel. The Caddy's, while you describe it as bland, looks quite functional to me; I'd rather sit in the Caddy and drive it, than the Bimmmer. The BMW seats look very uncomfortable to me. Are they fake 3-point rigs, or what? And carbon fiber on the seat back? Who GAF?

And until recently, BMW was the king of bland interiors, because form followed function, and the function of a BMW interior was to help the driver... drive better. You know, that "Ultimate Driving Machine" crap.

[eliphil]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

That is not true at all. Check out the newest Jeeps and the RAM trucks. Beautiful interiors! The Escalade has a high quality interior, too. C8 Corvette’s driver focused cockpit layout is a thing of beauty. However, this Cadillac’s interior is bland as fuck. This is not an anti-American sentiment or whatever you want to call it. It’s just the truth.

The last Escalade we owned was horrible. Terrible seats and the ergonomics left a lot to be desired. My 19 Z06 does have a really nice interior but I would not consider it to be the highest quality. My 2016 Audi is the best, great seats, superior ergonomics and a great driving experience.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've looked closely at both the pics you posted of the Caddy and BMW. I own a GM product and 4 BMWs (5 if you count my retired E30). To me the BMW interior is gawdy and akin to a brothel. The Caddy's, while you describe it as bland, looks quite functional to me; I'd rather sit in the Caddy and drive it, than the Bimmmer. The BMW seats look very uncomfortable to me. Are they fake 3-point rigs, or what? And carbon fiber on the seat back? Who GAF?

And until recently, BMW was the king of bland interiors, because form followed function, and the function of a BMW interior was to help the driver... drive better. You know, that "Ultimate Driving Machine" crap.

I think a lot of the bias comes from years and years of fantastic-plastic US car-manufacturer interiors. Even if some Euro interiors are better, the "gap" we are talking about is extremely small and in some cases, not there at all.

This is just a C7, but it shows that the interiors are no longer ridiculous hard plastic. A buddy has an early C6 and it's just ridiculous, hard plastic everywhere like a Japanese or Korean econo-box car. But I think a lot of testers...people too, are just drawn by their bias to point out things that when you look at it comparatively, are "just as bad" or even worse with the European cars. But they give the European car a "pass" on the same issues, like plastic stuff, cheap buttons, using the same steering wheel, blank buttons and so on. Like all the hype on some of the BMW boards about the "sport seats".

[eliphil]

Dood that is a beautiful interior, I like mine to on my z06 but my audi is just better amd smarter. I cant speak for bmw because mine is still stuck at the port but I will comment and after a month of ownership

[stein_325i]

2022 Performance Car of the Year

Originally Posted by Road & Track

The GT3 was the second-fastest car here, thanks in part to the impressive Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires. The Porsche came in for universal praise, with every member of the staff stoked on the engine, the turn-in, the sheer delight of that gearbox. “The noise! The front end!” wrote Perkins.“No car inspires so much confidence on track,”said Baime. “This is PCOTY royalty,” said Kinard.

A high accolade, and one that also applies to the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing. This is Cadillac’s ultimate internal-combustion performance car. All future models will be electric. It’s a hell of a send-off.

Familiar magic: GM’s venerable small-block V-8, supercharged and putting out 668 hp, attached to a Tremec six-speed manual and rear-wheel drive. The chassis is truly unbelievable, with MagneRide dampers tuned so perfectly, they’ll make you emotional. “Superb body control. Chassis silky, composed, competent,” wrote Kinard. Every trick in GM’s book is here, including the fantastic Performance Traction Management system, which cuts spark instead of braking to control wheelspin. Genuine motorsport stuff.

The result isn’t just a brilliant sport sedan. It’s one of the best sport sedans of all time. It’s not the quickest in a straight line, and it wasn’t the quickest on track—Monticello’s tighter layout put the Blackwing fifth. None of that matters. No car besides the GT3 earned this kind of reaction. Every note about the Caddy was littered with exclamations and heart emoji, a flurry of love letters to a soon-to-be-bygone era.



While the M4 got up to speed quicker, the Blackwing had layers to discover. I wanted to keep lapping, so I did, offering rides to everyone. Everything about this car was tuned with loving care: The gearbox is perfect. The steering is feelsome and delightful. And the engine? Beyond reproach. The small-block has been a staple for generations, and it’s easy to see why. This is the complete package, the sort of car we’ve begged someone to make for years, and GM did...

Finally, there’s a blue Cadillac. More than a decade ago, the luxury purveyors from Detroit fixed their sights on BMW and never turned back. While Cadillac has built some epic metal in the interim, this sedan is its master stroke. The CT5-V Blackwing conversation was not about whether it’s a great sport sedan but about whether it’s the greatest sport sedan. It’s that good.

The Caddy’s heavy inputs lend a granite-like solidity through every corner, no matter the road surface. The Blackwing’s steering wheel, shift action, and pedals all reward with hefty, positive feedback that communicates the weight of the car, but never make it feel cumbersome. That attitude is followed in lock step by the chassis tuning and that burly powertrain, a 6.2-liter V-8 with a supercharger perched on top.

As much as they shined on the track, the magnetic dampers felt doubly good out here, turning cobbles into a procession of clouds underfoot.

We came away enthralled by the brash Americanness of the thing. How Cadillac baked refinement into the muscle-car mold but didn’t backdown from knuckle-dragger charm. How could you choose a winner from the bunch?



Our three finalists for the PCOTY title represent different performance formulas, but each had six forward gears, three pedals, and rear-wheel drive. Coincidence?

Ultimately, the debate was less a sober litigation and more a reflection on what Performance Car of the Year actually means. The Cadillac may be the last V-8 stick-shift sport sedan ever to lay two greasy slabs of rubber down an American blacktop. Isn’t that worth celebrating? Or do you reward the 911 for its race-car soul and life-affirming flat-six? And what about the Toyota 86, that ear-to-ear grin on wheels?

[eliphil]

wow that is hard to argue with makes me proud of Amercian engineering. I still would not want this as a daily driver unless I lived where there is no snow then maybe.

[heavyD^2]

Pretty amazing that the M4 Comp is over a half second faster around the track than the CT5-V. Highest Max Acceleration (g) and Max Cornering (g) out of all the cars. I know this is a Cadillac thread but it's hard to ignore how supremely capable the M3/M4 xDrive is.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Pretty amazing that the M4 Comp is over a half second faster around the track than the CT5-V. Highest Max Acceleration (g) and Max Cornering (g) out of all the cars. I know this is a Cadillac thread but it's hard to ignore how supremely capable the M3/M4 xDrive is.

The max cornering g is an anomaly during one instance in a lap. This is not the same as doing a skid pad test(sustained g). The telling figure for corner grip is minimum speed in turn 11. Cadillac was over 2mph faster. M4 xdrive gained it's time on the tight track with awd acceleration out of slow corners. This is how the R35 GTR use to do it(still does), no soul just quick.

R&T called the M4 a paper champ, which it is.
"On paper it’s a triumph. But much of the character from older M3s is still missing—the tactility, focus, and charisma. BMW can find its way back; the M2 CS is proof of that. But this fresh-from-the-womb M4 has room to improve."

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by eliphil

wow that is hard to argue with makes me proud of Amercian engineering. I still would not want this as a daily driver unless I lived where there is no snow then maybe.

You can't get much higher praise for the Blackwing than this...

"It’s one of the best sport sedans of all time."

[AlexFL]

Why don’t they get the Nordschleife time done for this car? So far results are confusing. The CT5 was awesomely quick in Willow Springs but it was slower than M4C xDrive in Monticello. There is no question it’s very competitive - I want to see the Nurburgring time.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Pretty amazing that the M4 Comp is over a half second faster around the track than the CT5-V. Highest Max Acceleration (g) and Max Cornering (g) out of all the cars. I know this is a Cadillac thread but it's hard to ignore how supremely capable the M3/M4 xDrive is.

It’s still just a BMW in the end. It’s got a big grille. And it’s from Europe. Because people can’t argue with the numbers, they will will say that the BMW has no soul, no steering feel, it’s not as fun or playful, it’s bad because you don’t get to spin the rear wheels at every traffic light, BMW has lost its ways, and more non-measurable nonsense. The truth is that German cars completely dominate the luxury and performance sedan market, and have been doing so for decades, so people get easily excited when outsiders like these two very limited number Caddies or the IS500 show up for a year or two. It’s understandable.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

It’s still just a BMW in the end. It’s got a big grille. And it’s from Europe. Because people can’t argue with the numbers, they will will say that the BMW has no soul, no steering feel, it’s not as fun or playful, it’s bad because you don’t get to spin the rear wheels at every traffic light, BMW has lost its ways, and more non-measurable nonsense...

Back in the days when BMW had a soul, they'd win comparison test after comparison test and Audi/MB/Lexus fanboys would exclaim BMW do not have the numbers, not the fastest but they still win the comparison tests because they're better connected to the road and more fun to drive... WTF?!!... what non-measurable nonsense!! These car review companies must be paid off by BMW.

So, it has always been this way but now the shoe is on the other foot with BMW having the acceleration numbers and now BMW fanboys are the ones making sarcastic tones about these "non-measurable nonsense".

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

It’s still just a BMW in the end. It’s got a big grille. And it’s from Europe. Because people can’t argue with the numbers, they will will say that the BMW has no soul, no steering feel, it’s not as fun or playful, it’s bad because you don’t get to spin the rear wheels at every traffic light, BMW has lost its ways, and more non-measurable nonsense. The truth is that German cars completely dominate the luxury and performance sedan market, and have been doing so for decades, so people get easily excited when outsiders like these two very limited number Caddies or the IS500 show up for a year or two. It’s understandable.

It is because they are different now. BMW use to win comparos simply on feel and driver involvement back in the day. Now they are all about stats, like the R35 GTR was when it came out. R/T is just pointing out they have changed, it isn't really putting down the car to be honest.

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Back in the days when BMW had a soul, they'd win comparison test after comparison test and Audi/MB/Lexus fanboys would exclaim BMW do not have the numbers, not the fastest but they still win the comparison tests because they're better connected to the road and more fun to drive... WTF?!!... what non-measurable nonsense!! These car review companies must be paid off by BMW.

Exactly. Lost count how many times AMG fanboys lost their sh1t and said magazines where paid off by BMW.

Hence, R/T mentioning the M2CS as being the latest gen to match old school BMW. They all said they believe more is coming from BMW. For them the current M4 isn't what they like, but acknowledge its quickness and abilities.

Originally Posted by Tacoma

So, it has always been this way but now the shoe is on the other foot with BMW having the acceleration numbers and now BMW fanboys are the ones making sarcastic tones about these "non-measurable nonsense".

Some media and BMW fanboys are trying to say new acceleration numbers come at a cost of losing the "non-measurable nonsense". The "non-measurable nonsense" is why R/T was drooling over the Blackwing.

[AlexFL]

I initially just wanted to ignore your posts, but you guys wrote so much confusing crap… I just need to reply.
1) What you two call being a BMW fanboy, I call it brand loyalty. There is nothing wrong with being loyal. There are people who are loyal to their brand and there are folks who will embrace and celebrate everything a magazine like C&D or R&T tells them to. You two do not belong to the first group, that’s for sure.
2) I don’t know why you want to talk about G82’s superior straight line acceleration if it just won against the CT5 Blackwing on a tight, technical track. Clearly, G80/82 are also excellent track weapons.
3) BMW still wins car comparisons. E.g., see the highly prestigious EVO car of the year 2020 and 2021 awards. A BMW won both times. It was M2 CS in 2020, M5 CS in 2021. G80 was fourth in 2021.
4) BMW continues to do more for ICE enthusiasts than any other mainstream brand. While companies like GM decided to completely switch to EVs in a great hurry, BMW has just committed to continue developing new internal combustion engines. You all should celebrate this fact.

List of BMW Awards 2020:
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...22712EN/468305

[Topcarbon]

Asked my wife
What if I purchased this Cadillac and not the M4?
She said “Cadillac?” For your grandfather?
I will leave that there

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Topcarbon

Asked my wife
What if I purchased this Cadillac and not the M4?
She said “Cadillac?” For your grandfather?
I will leave that there

It's good check with people that know nothing about cars for advice on which one to buy.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Topcarbon

Asked my wife
What if I purchased this Cadillac and not the M4?
She said “Cadillac?” For your grandfather?
I will leave that there

Your wife is about 2 decades behind the times. No offense meant.

[Topcarbon]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Your wife is about 2 decades behind the times. No offense meant.

No doubt
I tend to like older cars and she has been hanging around me so I guess that mentality has rubbed off.
So when she thinks of Cadillac, she thinks 80s and big boats

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I initially just wanted to ignore your posts, but you guys wrote so much confusing crap… I just need to reply.
1) What you two call being a BMW fanboy, I call it brand loyalty. There is nothing wrong with being loyal. There are people who are loyal to their brand and there are folks who will embrace and celebrate everything a magazine like C&D or R&T tells them to. You two do not belong to the first group, that’s for sure.
2) I don’t know why you want to talk about G82’s superior straight line acceleration if it just won against the CT5 Blackwing on a tight, technical track. Clearly, G80/82 are also excellent track weapons.
3) BMW still wins car comparisons. E.g., see the highly prestigious EVO car of the year 2020 and 2021 awards. A BMW won both times. It was M2 CS in 2020, M5 CS in 2021. G80 was fourth in 2021.
4) BMW continues to do more for ICE enthusiasts than any other mainstream brand. While companies like GM decided to completely switch to EVs in a great hurry, BMW has just committed to continue developing new internal combustion engines. You all should celebrate this fact.

List of BMW Awards 2020:
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...22712EN/468305

There is nothing wrong with brand loyalty but it should go both ways. BMW used to care for its loyal customers with the Euro buying plan (now cancelled), ability to order a car exactly as you like (the problems right now are not totally BMW's fault given the parts shortage but BMW could be more transparent), car design (basically attacking those loyal followers who didn't like the new snouts) and change for change's sake so BMW muscle memory suddenly ceases to work on certain features.

Cadillac makes an excellent product in the Blackwing series. If a few parts sneak in from the GM parts bin, so be it. BMW makes an excellent product as well. They each excel in different ways.

[eliphil]

I agree, its Ok to like one , the other or both. This is all subjective and should be enjoyable to discuss. Some of the folks on this thread need to chill out. I have owned multiple GM products and Audi's so I feel qualified to say that each company has certain strengths that appeal to us based on whats important. My first BMW is stuck at the port so I am not yet qualified to comment